Rachel welcomes bestselling author AJ Jacobs, known for his immersive "method writing" approach. They discuss how curiosity, gratitude, and risk-taking can reignite creativity and combat workplace burnout. From living biblically for a year to becoming the healthiest person alive, AJ shares how diving deep into new experiences fuels his work and how you can apply the same principles to rediscover your spark.
Rachel welcomes bestselling author AJ Jacobs, known for his immersive "method writing" approach. They discuss how curiosity, gratitude, and risk-taking can reignite creativity and combat workplace burnout. From living biblically for a year to becoming the healthiest person alive, AJ shares how diving deep into new experiences fuels his work and how you can apply the same principles to rediscover your spark.
Modern Mentor is hosted by Rachel Cooke. A transcript is available at Simplecast.
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RACHEL: A. J. Jacobs, author, podcaster, extraordinaire. Welcome to the Modern Mentor podcast. So over the moon to have you here today.
AJ: I am over the moon to be here. I am a fan. I am a big fan. I love your podcast. And I love, it's got these actionable tips that I take away every time. So I'm feeling stressed. I need to give some actionable tips. to the listeners so they can come away and be like, Oh, there are four things I can do. So that's my goal.
I'm stating it here.
RACHEL: All right. We have set the bar high. They've got to be actionable. They got to be quick. They got to be dirty. We're going to make this happen. Oh, okay. So, AJ, just quick background for the listeners. you and I had the great fortune and by great fortune, all mine, to meet in person a few weeks ago, it turns out randomly.
We are. Sending our children off to college together. I saw your name on a, guest list and I said to my husband, I am going to meet this guy and I'm going to get him on my show because I have been a fan of his for definitely at least a decade at this point. So I am so excited that you're here. And for fans that don't know you, I described you as an author and you are, by the letter of the law.
But I would also say that there is very little traditional about. The way that you author, how would you describe what you do for a living?
AJ: Yeah, first just, I was so thrilled that our kids are both going to the same college. I don't know if there's a term for that. That are like, relatives. Mishpooka. But, but it was great to meet you in person. And I'm, as for your question, yeah, I, people have described what I do as method writing, which I like a method, like method acting.
So I, what I do is I immerse myself in a topic and then I live it for a year or more, maybe less. And then I write about what I've learned. So I've done that with several topics, everything from. I tried to follow the Bible as literally as possible for a year, I tried to be the healthiest person for a year, I tried to be the most grateful person for a year, which, I think we have many overlaps in the way we think, but one of them is gratitude. and, and I also became the most obsessive puzzle, solver for a year, jigsaws, crosswords, et cetera. So I love it. I love my job and I feel lucky that I can do it and that enough people buy my books that I can continue doing it.
RACHEL: I will keep ranting and raving about them. And I will just say I have
AJ: ranting.
RACHEL: more, more raving noted, more raving than ranting. Okay. so I have described you to people, to my friends as a blend between a very happy, grateful Larry David and Christopher Guest. The movie director. method acting or method writing because I feel like what you do in your books We're gonna talk about it a little bit in a minute is You go really deep into something for anyone who's ever seen a Christopher Guest movie he does something similar where he goes into the world of like people bring in their dogs to dog shows or He goes into this really narrow slice of the world and he highlights All of the quirks that are in there that nobody's ever looked at that closely.
And he helps you see the levity and the humor, but not at anybody's expense. And I feel like that's a little bit of what I have experienced you doing with your books. I think the first one that I read was called Drop Dead Healthy. and it was fascinating because you spoke to all of these experts.
across the entire health spectrum. I remember there was one doctor who had never washed his hands ever, and another one who washed her hands after literally every exchange, and you're trying to figure out what's what here. okay. So all of that is to say, yeah, go ahead.
AJ: Oh, no. first, I just love that description. I love both Christopher Guest and Larry David. I talk about in the Gratitude book that I feel that in my mind, it's always a battle between Larry David and Mr. Rogers. You've got the positive side and the negative
RACHEL: Okay.
AJ: I, and, I do try, I love watching Larry David, but I don't want to be Larry David, so I, always try to bulk up my grateful side. but yeah, I, I also love what you say about I like to be the everyman and try to learn everything, and talk to all these experts, and then try to bring back what I think is the wisdom to the reader.
RACHEL: amazing. Now my question for you, my first question for you is, how do you find your ideas? And by the way, just to take a step back and give this some context. The reason I really wanted to talk to you today, AJ is. because we had so much fun at our college event, but more so because I'm just talking to people all over the place across industries who are really struggling at work right now.
they are bored, they are disconnected, they are lonely, they feel stuck. There's a lot of, they are burned out, they are overwhelmed. And I just, I feel like people are. Struggling to find their spark these days. That's what I feel like I'm hearing over and you are like a walking spark plug. And so at least that's my experience of you.
And so that is really what I want to explore with you today. I want to talk about your relationship with creativity and whimsy and risk taking because I feel like these are some of the missing elements, that people are struggling to find. So I probably should have done that set up in the beginning, but I'm doing it now better late than never.
So with that said, I would love to hear a little bit from you about where your ideas come from. Like we're all walking down the same streets, but you just seem to see things where your eye seems to get caught by things that other people's don't. And I'm curious what you can share about that.
AJ: I can share that I love coming up with ideas, and will say that 98 percent of my ideas are terrible. They're just crap, and so hopefully you see the 2 percent that are good, but know that it is just the tip of an iceberg where most of the ideas are terrible. I have I try to be very, disciplined about it, so I do spend 15 minutes every morning my, tablet, writing by hand, because I am a fan of writing by hand, and I just, I have some magazines around me, and I come up with ideas. And as I say, most of them are terrible. I actually am, I've opened up my list of ideas. I have a list of thousands of ideas, good and bad. And I'll just read you. And you can see, most of them, I'll read four or five and you'll see. I saw a picture of Mona Lisa and I thought, what if Mona Lisa came alive?
They made a movie about, it's like Splash with the Mermaid, but Mona Lisa comes out of the frame. and, I don't think that's a great movie idea, but it was interesting. I enjoyed coming up with it. I was thinking about, meat that you can make in a laboratory. And now there's no boundaries. So what if you made, took a little meat from every species on Earth, a cheek swab, and you had an everything burger, like an everything bagel of everything. yes, your face is making an, you are looking absolutely grossed out, which is the point. As I say, most of these are bad ideas. We're never gonna But then I thought Sometimes they lead to something. for instance, I was thinking, I don't know, I saw a picture of a cat, and I thought of the word catty, and are cats actually catty?
And that led to a puzzle that I'm going to do on my podcast, which is about puzzles, about adjectives and verbs related to animals. So that idea, it was just a seed that planted something. It may not be the greatest puzzle ever, but I thought it was interesting enough to pursue. that is, I come up to me, and I've talked to creativity experts, I've written about creativity And the general consensus among the scientists is, it's a numbers game.
You don't see a lot of Picasso's terrible stuff, but he made it. He made terrible stuff, and he might send it away. it is a lot about, being okay with getting, with coming up with bad ideas, because that's the only way you're going to get to the good ideas.
RACHEL: Okay. So that's really helpful. And I actually, in the spirit of making sure we capture actionable tips, I feel like I heard two in there. So keep me honest. One thing I heard you say is it's about volume, right? So sitting and thinking and waiting for the good idea to rise to the top is probably a losing person's game.
AJ: Agree.
RACHEL: heard it. I think it was Seth Godin who said that people with the most good ideas are just the ones with the most bad ideas, right? So
AJ: Love
RACHEL: there's definitely something about just generating volume and, letting it flow. I love that you have that daily practice, but I also heard, and maybe I'm, I am intuiting this and you can call me out and say that it's wrong, but what I hear you saying is you're not necessarily thinking of ideas in service of something.
You're just thinking of stuff. Like you're just letting Ideas come, you're not necessarily, it doesn't sound like you were trying to come up with a puzzle. You were just letting ideas come out and be what they need to be. And you turned one of them into a puzzle, right? And so from a creativity standpoint, I feel like discipline and volume is one thing.
And then what I'm hearing is, It doesn't have to be a purpose or a so what to it. It's just a creative exercise. Is that any of that fair and reasonable?
AJ: Not just fair, but super insightful. Thank you for that. Yes, think, there's room for both. I think sometimes, when I'm in the morning, I am just up with ideas and then later I'm saying could this be an article? Could this be a substack? Could this be a book or a puzzle? I do, I am more focused and say, okay, I need to come up with a book idea. Let's spend the next half hour on that. But again, it is a lot about the discipline, which you mentioned, and carving out a half hour, making an appointment with your creative self, as some people say. A little cheesy, but there you go. Like you do have to, I, that's not true for everyone. Some people get their best ideas in the shower, and I've heard scientists talk about how that releases the, frontal cortex, to let you make connections. for me, it is much more productive to do hour, and no, even like that first five minutes, you may not get anything good, because you've got to let your brain warm up. And then the other question, which I think you implied, but, was, how do I know which ideas are good? And that is very tricky. I'd say I have two or three heuristics that I really rely on. And one is, does. This idea stick around in my brain for a couple of months and I'm thinking, Oh, remember that idea? That was actually interesting. And I do like to tell my ideas good and bad to people so I can see their reaction. So I saw your reaction to the everything burger, so I know not to pursue that, but if you can tell, friends will often say, Oh, that's a good idea, but you could see it in their eyes, whether they really believe it or not.
RACHEL: I love that. So making good use of the people around you, the people that you know and trust, and Maybe some new people. I know the first time you and I met you shared an idea with me and I think I give you an honest reaction. I do tend to do that. and I thought it was really cool that you did that.
Honestly, in the moment I felt honored and now I'm pretty sure that you just do that with everybody. But still, I think it's a great technique, right? There's no reason to keep everything so close to the best. The people around you are our resources. So So tap into it.
AJ: Yeah,
RACHEL: Awesome.
AJ: I used to be very, play it very close to the vest, not share my ideas because there is a risk that you, someone else will take the idea. So there. And in some industries, that's a bigger risk than others. I have found, over the years, that the benefits of sharing ideas, as they, even in the infant stage, the risks. And I've, seen this, is an example many years ago, but my friend was on Facebook and he posted, I wish there was a book called Go the F to Sleep. Or he said, I'm writing a book. He said it jokingly. And everyone on his Facebook feed was like, that's a great idea, you should really do that. and that became the book, which sold millions of copies. It was called Go the F to Sleep, but F was spelled out. And it was a great way to humorously address the frustration of to get kids to sleep.
RACHEL: that book was brilliant and it really carried me through some of the early years when, yes. I remember the pain. That is, that's so interesting. I love that. Thank you. So obviously, or maybe not obviously, but a lot of my listeners, are living in professional worlds that are probably a bit different to yours.
It sounds like you're working in a space where you have the, liberty, maybe also the curse of, but certainly the liberty of the space to be creative and you have some freedom around that. And yet, to your point, books are business. Your work is business. And How do you find that balance between being creative and letting your imagination roam but also thinking about, maybe the commercial value of an idea and creating the discipline to actually sit down and, write the book or do the work?
Any tips in that realm you can share with us?
AJ: one thing that comes to mind is trying not to say, Oh, this is a creative job and this is a non creative job. for instance, I went into writing because I thought, I love to write, which is not actually true. I don't like to write. The actual writing, sitting alone, is quite unpleasant.
Coming up with ideas. Talking about those ideas, researching, that I do find enjoyable. But I was always afraid of marketing. But then I had to reframe it. I, a few years ago, I was like, this is a huge part of being a writer, is the marketing. So I'm going to reframe it as something creative, instead of this chore that I dread. And that made a huge difference. And I was able to, I realized you can be incredibly creative in marketing. and so when I wrote the book about the Bible, where I lived by every rule in the Bible, from the Ten Commandments on down to growing a huge beard, that came out and I said, Alright, I, who can I How can I reach those markets that normally wouldn't, be interested in this book? And I, the Bible talks about sex. There's a lot of sex in the Bible. Then the Song of Songs, the Song of Solomon, quite racy. So I did a, an article, I pitched to Glamour magazine, which at the, it's still pretty big, but at the time was much bigger. I said, what if I wrote an article? By sex tips from the Bible and they said we you know, yeah, that's great.
We'll do it So I was able to get that and then I did the same thing, business tips from the Bible and I was able to market it to both atheists and religious people because they were part, the book was about how there are good parts to religion and bad parts to religion. for those who wanted to focus on the skepticism, I was there.
For those who wanted to look at the good parts, I was there. And that was super fun and creative, and, so I think that's it. A lot about framing and focusing how anything can be creative. If you, if you look at it a certain way.
RACHEL: I love that. in, so in the context of the work that I do so I, have my background is in organizational psychology and there is this concept that we talk about in the workplace called job crafting, which is really just a nerdy, wonky way of giving, giving terminology to what you just described, right?
It's, I think the, the analog in the more traditional workplace is that, when you have a job, there are certain objectives you need to achieve, there are certain outcomes you need to get to, but Finding the activities that give you joy, that light you up, thinking about your job through a particular lens or context can really shift.
Your experience of it, right? And so I think there's something really powerful in that. If you are a person who is a great talker and a great connector and a great researcher, you can really harness that and leverage that. If you're somebody who loves spreadsheets, like you can always find a way to choose the activities that give you joy and find a way to bring them into the, the path of delivering an outcome that you are accountable to.
AJ: Great point.
RACHEL: anyway, I think that's it. Yeah. And so you gave us such a great example of that because I can appreciate that. the idea of marketing a book, if you're a writer, if you're a creative marketing sounds like a very kind of wonky discipline and there are right ways and wrong ways. And it sounds like there's a lot of rigor and you, brought your own strengths into how you approached it.
And you've been, I will say you've been very successful. Just by the measure of, I definitely fall into more of the atheist bucket and I read that book and I loved it and I thought it was hilarious and I couldn't wait to meet your wife because she is definitely the hero of it as we have discussed, I couldn't imagine having had to live with you through that year long experiment.
She did it. She's amazing.
Thank you for that. Thank you for sharing that. So
AJ: of
RACHEL: here's what I would love to ask next. So you've talked a little bit about how you love coming up with ideas, how you have discipline around coming up with ideas. maybe for people who are feeling a little bit of like boredom and monotony and my job just feels the same every day.
Is there anything that you do to just whet your appetite for curiosity? Any tips on how to start to build that muscle.
AJ: I love that question. I love that question. And I would say, yeah, to me, curiosity and gratitude are two favorite human drives or emotions. And, yeah, there are ways to build up both. of the ways I find is I love, I once interviewed Alex Trebek, the, late host of Jeopardy, cause I was working at Esquire magazine. I loved him. By the way, he cursed like a sailor off screen. So there you go, but still quite lovable. And one of the quotes he said, I still think about it because it's a little paradoxical, but I totally got it. And he said, I'm curious about everything. those things that don't interest me. I'm curious about everything, even those things that don't interest me. And what I think he meant is it's a way of looking at the world and realizing that those topics that might on the surface seem dull are actually almost always fascinating because they almost always deal with human life. when I was writing that book on coffee, I had to do, section on logistics, how the coffee gets to me.
And I had never thought about pallets, those wooden, crates that, and I was like, how am I going to write even a sentence on that? But once I started looking into it, I read a quote, the world runs on pallets. my, everything I'm looking at right now, this microphone, this computer, this table has been on a pallet.
So without pallets, I would have nothing. So you've
RACHEL: Okay.
AJ: you got to
RACHEL: a fun fact.
AJ: it's there. Billions of them. 80 percent of merchandise has been on a pallet and without it. So I always say, how does it affect humans? things can be interesting on their own, but how did. It affects my life in a huge way and I never even think about it.
So then, I have some sort of emotional, personal investment in it. I'm like, I'm thankful for pallets. Without them, I wouldn't be talking to you. I wouldn't have my morning coffee. that, I think, is one way to pique your curiosity. See, how does it affect my life? Because almost, we're so interconnected that almost everything does affect our lives.
Whether that's accounting. Which is seemingly, people make fun of it for being boring. even I've heard podcasts about concrete. And how important concrete is to the world. It's I think it's one, perhaps the most common manufactured substance. And, and we wouldn't, I wouldn't be sitting here without it.
does it affect your life? And then, going from there. I think that's an entry point to pique your curiosity.
RACHEL: I love that. That's such a different way of looking at things. and I think sometimes in the workplace, sometimes the question that can really trigger for people is how does this affect the customer or the patient, depending on what kind of business we're in. depending on what function you're in, I think if you're in a healthcare organization and you are a physician, if you're a nurse, how you affect the patient is pretty obvious.
But if you work in finance, if you work on the janitorial staff, sometimes having some curiosity about how a task that you have to manage in your day can, will ultimately have that impact might be a, way to leverage that principle in a different context. I love that. Thank you.
AJ: of course. Thank you. there's this famous story I think I wrote about in the Gratitude book turns out to be true. It sounds apocryphal, but it's true that John F. Kennedy was touring NASA and he asked a janitor who was mopping the hall and he said, what's your job here? And he said, my job is to help put a man on the moon. And I was like, that is such a great reframe. and, really, yeah, quite inspiring. The other reframe I love is, as I love my puzzles. So I love a quote from Quincy Jones, who is the music producer who says his philosophy of life, he just died, rest in peace. He said, I don't have problems. I have puzzles. So he said, when you look at life, try to see it as a puzzle at work. and with, and your relationships, it's so much more, invigorating and empowering, a problem or a crisis makes you want to curl up in the corner, but a puzzle, you're like, okay, let's roll up our sleeves and see how we can solve this.
RACHEL: I love that. I'm going to have to look that one up. Thank you.
AJ: Of course.
RACHEL: okay. So here is my next question for you. I would describe you, I've already described you a lot, I know, but I would describe you as somebody who presents with this really interesting balance of humility and almost a bit of like self deprecation.
And yet I have to imagine it takes a lot of confidence to be doing what you do, to be pitching ideas, to be pitching Glamour Magazine to write an article about sex from the Bible. How do you, do that? How do you, first of all, does that, resonate with you? And second of all, if you're willing to accept my description, how do you strike that balance of being humble and being able to laugh at yourself, but being able to channel the confidence to take these risks and put these ideas out there?
AJ: Yeah, I would say it's at, it is accurate with an asterisk. I act as if I'm confident, really I'm not. But. I think we talked about this. I am a big fan of how behavior shapes your how the outer shapes your inner, the whole idea of acting as if and fake it till you feel it, not just fake it till you make it, but fake it till it actually starts to resonate with you. And, that's, an ancient idea that's been around for thousands of years. But it's also a modern idea because a lot of cognitive behavioral psychology, which I'm a big fan of, rests on this idea. I will pretend that I'm confident, until I become a little more confident. for instance, you mentioned the health book. I, I had to call sort of the top doctors and experts on health in the world. I was like, I, who am I? I don't have a PhD and, so I would wake up sometimes despairing. This topic is too big. I, but I would act as if I were confident and would call up my publisher. I'd say, when this is published, let's have a big party where we serve kale martinis.
And I had all these, so I would act as if I was confident that this was going to be a mega hit. And that gave, eventually, after a couple of hours, every day, I found I had to restart it every day. and I would eventually become more confident and have the confidence to call up anyone in the world. and also be okay with being rejected. That's, that's part of it. so, yes, I do feel you need confidence, but you can fake that confidence until you gain the real confidence.
RACHEL: That's helpful, it just, it takes a lot of reps.
AJ: Yeah, I think it, it's also the same with, gratitude. I would wake up and I would be in my Larry David mood of not being grateful, but I would force myself to call people or meet people and say how thankful I was, and eventually it would sink in. Your brain catches up with your behavior.
RACHEL: So can we talk a little bit about your, experience with gratitude? you've, written about it. You've talked about it a lot. It's, it's a concept that I think has become pretty popular in, in pop culture these days. what would you say was most surprising to you as you started forcing yourself to be mindful of moments of gratitude?
What, surprised you? What did you learn about yourself? Oh,
AJ: one thing was, I think, that gratitude, there's a famous quote, that, I think it's a monk, a Benedictine monk said it. I forget his name, but, what? I'm sorry. I turned off the, oh, shoot. All right. Are you there? I put on do not disturb. I don't know, but we're
RACHEL: oh, no worries.
AJ: yes, I think that the quote is from a benedictine monk, and he said, happiness does not lead to gratitude. leads to happiness. And I really felt that because I, when I forced myself to be grateful, I actually was All I would become happier and I'll give you just one example of, this, idea of the book was to call or thank in person every single person, not every single, people who had anything to do with making my morning cup of coffee. So that meant the obvious, like the barista, I flew to South America and I thanked the farmers of the beans. But I also thanked. The truck driver and, who carried the coffee beans or who made the road for the truck driver because he couldn't have done it. So the idea was it's all interconnected. And I remember one day calling the woman who did, pest control for the warehouse where the coffee beans were stored. And I said, I know this is a strange call, but I'd like to thank you for helping to keep the insects out of my coffee. And she said, that is a little weird, thank you! I don't get a lot of positive feedback in my line of work, and this has made my day.
Which in turn made my day. So it was this virtuous cycle where you actually become happier by thanking other people. And that was a huge lesson.
RACHEL: That's amazing. It's amazing. And, one of the conversations I have often in the workplace is around recognition programs, right? And we need to, have an online platform and we need funding and we need to be able to, give people money and spot bonuses and All that is great. And I tell organizations, if you manage that, if you have the time and the funds go for it, but really just regular, authentic expressions of thank you.
And I, like to tell people. Not just thank you for the heroes and not just thank you for the big wins, but thank you for just behaviors that you appreciate that you want to see repeated, you know expressing gratitude to somebody because they Poked a hole in your plan when nobody else had the courage to do it, right?
or somebody gave you a piece of advice that you didn't ask for like The things that we thank people for, they want to repeat, right? And to your point about that virtuous cycle, it's you say thank you, it triggers dopamine in the other person, they want to do it again, and then they want to say thank you.
And I think for anybody who's, not feeling appreciated or recognized in their own lives, they should be mindful of how can you express that gratitude and recognize somebody else in you. You should start the practicing, create a little bit of a positive contagion around that.
AJ: That is such a great point. Yeah. If you aren't feeling, recognized, maybe recognize other people and they'll get the idea this
RACHEL: Totally.
AJ: yeah, that's great.
RACHEL: Totally. So I want to switch gears. Ajan, podcast because everything else you touch, it's a little quirky and it's super fun. can you tell us a little bit about it and what triggered you to start it? Oh.
AJ: the puzzler with AJ Jacobs. It's on I heart and it's every day, a short little burst of. puzzle, audio puzzle, like wordle for your ears. And, I, did it because I wrote a book, as I mentioned, on puzzles. And I do think that puzzles are not a waste of time. maybe that is rationalization on my part, but I genuinely think Jones says treat your life like a puzzle, and it's better, and it's got, it's all about curiosity, all about solutions, which I think we need to have a solution mindset instead of a problem mindset. So I'm a huge fan of puzzles, and we'll have on. often they're celebrities in quotes, but sometimes real celebrities like Joseph Gordon Levitt is coming up next week, and he's a real celebrity. Yeah, and we give them audio puzzles that are meant to just keep you sharp and get your brain going in the morning or at night whenever you listen. And I'll give you a couple of quick examples. Just so that it makes more sense. One is this puzzle we came up with, where it is, give a hint, of a word.
I'm going to say a word, but it is a clue to a two word phrase. And you've got to figure out what that two word phrase is by the way that I say the first word. instance, if I say tide, then that answer is going to be rising tide because they said it
rising way. So if I said, for instance, if I said like a takeover, then that is a clue to,
RACHEL: Takeover.
AJ: you are good. That
RACHEL: I really am.
AJ: I
RACHEL: We're pretty hostile.
AJ: Are you, do you like puzzles?
RACHEL: I do now.
AJ: Ah, great. another one is banana. But nah,
RACHEL: Banana split. I
AJ: and what I love is I saw the aha moment in your eyes You're like puzzled and then you got it and that's what we're going for So I do love it And as I say, I do think puzzles are not a waste of time.
They're the opposite They are a very important way to look at the world. Thank
RACHEL: completely agree. And coming back to this whole idea of creativity, I am a really big believer in the power of just engaging different parts of our brains throughout the day, right? I'm a big believer in, I love reading. I read a lot of nonfiction. I read a lot of business, but I also, I read a lot of fiction.
And I think that there's Power in that, and I do, I have not listened to a podcast about concrete, but I do try to listen to things that are out of my comfort zone, not necessarily, things that I'm listening to specifically to learn something, but just to engage parts of my brain that I wouldn't necessarily engage otherwise.
I just think the more spots we can light up, the more interesting ideas and the more captivating connections I think we can make throughout a day.
AJ: 100%. I am, you and I are exactly aligned on that. Yeah, reading books about things that you know nothing about and you might not even be interested in. and also reading articles. that is one of the dangers that a lot of thinkers have been talking about for years is that the way the internet works is it figures out what you like and gives you more and more of that. in the old days were not perfect. I don't want to say we got to go back, but there, there was more serendipity in our media. So if you were looking the, paper and look, reading about something you're interested in, whatever that is finance, maybe on that same page, there was an article about India and you would never get that on your feed, but you'd say Oh, this is interesting.
And it expanded your mind. So I, tried to do that in my. intake is to not just focus on things I agree with or that I'm, immediately interested in.
RACHEL: I think that is really good advice right now in and outside of the workplace. I think we all need to be mindful of not getting stuck in our own bubbles and just keeping our minds open broadly.
AJ: A hundred percent. I actually, I use this app called Ground News, and it has this feature called Blindspot it has, it'll show, and I don't think the world can be divided into just conservative and liberal. I think that's, but for the purposes of this app, they, do classify certain magazine media as liberal and some as conservative, and they'll show you what the conservative media is covering that the, is a blind spot for the liberals, and they'll show you what the liberal media is covering that's a blind spot for the conservatives, and I find it very helpful to just have more of a, on the pulse of what is going on, not just in my bubble, but everywhere.
RACHEL: That is so interesting. I'm going to download that. So thank you for that, Rek.
AJ: ground news.
RACHEL: All right, I'm getting in there. Ajay, I want to be respectful of your time. This has been so much fun for me, thank you.
AJ: it.
RACHEL: I want to ask this one last question, and this comes from a place, so obviously, like I said, you and I are getting ready to launch some kids, send them to college.
And I'm, in this season right now because I've had experience in HR. A lot of my friends are coming to me with concerns and anxiety. Oh, my kid wants to study music. My kid wants to study this. it's so impractical. I, I need them to study business. I need them to study, this.
Renaissance poetry. This is crazy. I have some really strong perspective on that, but I, would love to get yours. you and I have talked. I know you've got three kids. you and your wife have what I can only describe as some pretty unconventional career paths. You both do some really interesting things.
And I'm curious, as you think about your kids as they're growing up and, Them having watched you, both of you, navigate these very interesting career paths, what do you hope, what do you hope they've seen, what do you hope they've taken away from watching the two of you do what you've done?
AJ: thank you for that. First of all, I do, before we go, I do want to hear some of your insights on this question. I will say, couple of things. One is, yes, my wife, by the way, just for context, she has a company that puts on scavenger hunts for team building. So you, talked about Whimsy and how Whimsy can be helpful in business.
And so that's the premise of her, they do these scavenger hunts in museums. neighborhoods, where you, answer fun questions and it's team building. yes, we both have slightly unusual. I, we both work very hard. I am working maybe too much. That is, I don't. but when my kids, I will say when my kids are there and want to do something with me, whatever time of day it is. put the work away, and I focus. I do hope that's a lesson for, that they take away, is to be fully present whatever you're doing. Whether that's being fully present while working, or being fully present in your relationships. always, I once read a biography of JFK, and it talked about how, he was President of the United States, but if an eight year old asked him a question, he would, lean down so he was eye level and really focus on them as if they were the most important person in the world. And I, if the President of the United States can do that, then I can do that. I love the, I try to set as a model, really focusing, put the phone away, look them in the eyes and be focused. on your family or your friends when you're with them, and be focused on work. I'm not, don't, I, don't really phone in my work.
do pay a lot of attention. So that might be one big, lesson that I want to
RACHEL: Nice.
AJ: but I want to hear your insight. You said you had, thoughts on this. Laughter.
RACHEL: I don't know, but I, so you, are talking about the importance of being really present and grounded and listening. I think that's spot on for me. I think the most important thing when it comes to learning and education is. Yeah. engagement. and I tell people all the time, I do think there are certain career paths.
if you at age 18 know with certainty you want to be a physician, an architect, like there are certain jobs that if you know those are what you want, they're probably as a technical path you should start pursuing sooner than later. But I think for most of us. What we study and what we end up doing professionally don't necessarily have to relate and I personally think that the best, to your point, you said earlier, let's look at problems as puzzles.
I think the most important skill we can all bring into the workplace is, being a good thinker. And so I think if you've. Taken a course of study that has really engaged your brain in whatever it is. I don't care. It could be drumming or Renaissance poetry or business. If you were engaged, if you cared enough to learn and think and question and explore whatever the topic, I think you're going to be successful.
I think you will find a way to be successful. And so that's always my advice to parents or kids who are asking, study something that Really captivates you and that's gonna ready you to do whatever you choose to do someday.
AJ: That is great. they used to do some hand signal in elementary school when you agreed with something. So I can't remember what it was, but I'm doing that, whatever it
RACHEL: I'll take it. I will take your hand signal corner of the screen. Thank you.
AJ: a hundred percent. And, thinking critically, I think is, the most important skill in business. And hopefully you can. and I think there are studies that talk about how liberal arts actually good for, and I think you and I talked about at that, college entry party, we talk a little about that book Range, and how we are, I, at least am a fan of young people trying different areas to see what resonates with them. not
RACHEL: Absolutely.
AJ: one.
RACHEL: Absolutely. I think we have a lot in common and how we think about this stuff. AJ, before we close, is there anything that you want to call our attention to? any projects of yours we should be keeping an eye out for? Any place you want to send people to find out more about you?
AJ: I guess one that I would, I would plug is I have a sub stack called experimental living with AJ Jacobs and I am excited about it because the premise of that is, I, am, I'm a writer so I can do something for a year and write a book about it. But I realized most people have. and they can't do that.
But I'm a fan of small experiments and even those can change your life in a big way. So even if it's just like I'm going to commit to writing by hand for 10 minutes a day, that's an experiment that anyone can do. And, it might have big benefits. It could be, I'm not going to gossip for a week and see what that's like.
So I'm a big fan of experimenting, whether it's big experiments or small experiments. I just think it's your brain fresh. It keeps life fresh and in the end, hopefully it improves your life.
RACHEL: Amazing. AJ, thank you so much for spending this time with me. I have enjoyed every minute of it.
AJ: Me, too, and I was excited, too, because I do like to, listen to the podcasts that I'm on, and this was a joy to listen to. I learned so much, like I say. And I hope at the end that I've accomplished that. Hopefully you listeners have found a takeaways from this. if not, you can email me and complain, but I tried.
Just know that I tried.
RACHEL: It was amazing. Thank you, AJ.
AJ: Thank you, Rachel.