An interview with Lauren McGoodwin, founder of Career Contessa, who makes the case for why invaluable beats indispensable…and shares some actions we can take to achieve this status.
An interview with Lauren McGoodwin, founder of Career Contessa, who makes the case for why invaluable beats indispensable…and shares some actions we can take to achieve this status.
Modern Mentor is hosted by Rachel Cooke. A transcript is available at Simplecast.
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Hey, it’s Rachel Cooke, your Modern Mentor. I’m the founder of Lead Above Noise—a firm specializing in helping leaders and organizations crack their activation codes – finding the simple tweaks to enhance both performance and engagement.
In today’s episode, I had the distinct pleasure of speaking with Lauren McGoodwin, Founder of Career Contessa – one of the largest career development media/education platforms for women in the U.S. Lauren is a career and leadership expert, author, and host of the Career Contessa podcast. In this conversation we got delightfully into the weeds of what it means to be truly invaluable at work. And actionable steps we can take to make it happen.
Rachel: Okay, well, Lauren McGoodwin, founder of The Career Contessa, I am delighted to have you join me on the Modern Mentor Podcast.
Thank you for being here today.
Lauren: Thank you so much for having me.
Rachel: So you and I both Both both host podcasts on the topic of just having a great experience at work, right? Being fulfilled, being well, um, being balanced. I, I have a sense that our, our souls have been hanging out maybe a little bit longer than we have. Um, it's so nice to finally bring them together. Um, talk to me a little bit about how you came to, to start the Career Contessa and what your podcast is all about.
Lauren: Absolutely. So I launched Career Contessa back in 2013. If you guys can remember a decade ago, um, it was before Lean In. It was before the Girlboss era. It was really before More transparency in the workplace and, and even for people to consider that work might be different for someone other than a white male. So I actually launched Career Contessa. It was my master's thesis project. And my hypothesis was that as someone who had recently entered, um, their career, I had graduated in 2009. So I kind of went through the recession thing. Now I was working as a recruiter at Hulu and I was writing my thesis on this. So I had. Experience on both sides of the hiring table. And I was like, I am thinking that what's going to happen to millennial women, people like myself who grew up a certain way is we are going to change the workforce. And that was sort of being said a lot. But more importantly, there wasn't support in a resource for us. And one that kind of spoke specifically about the unique Experiences that we were having and challenges we were going to have at work. So queer Contessa was my prototype that I created as a way to kind of prove my hypothesis. And, you know, except for COVID, um, I've been pretty much correct about it, which is that millennial women were going to be the largest generation of women to ever be in the workplace at one time. COVID obviously changed that a little bit. And the number was by 2020, we were going to make up more than half of the workplace. Um, We, what we do at career contest has evolved over time. So it was started as a career resource. And we started with an interview series of, I thought there was a lot of power and hearing from other women. And over time we have evolved to become really this professional development. One stop shop. So you can read articles, you can listen to our podcast, career Contessa, you can browse jobs, you can, um, fill out our, our anonymous salary database. You can take online courses. The whole idea at career Contessa is that you're more than just your job. A lot of career sites end up just being job sites. So we are a career site. So, um, and even with like our podcast, which is a weekly career advice show, we cover everything from So Oh, sorry. That goes back. Nevermind. I think it's gone now. Okay. Um, even with our podcast, we cover topics on how to help you be more fulfilled, healthy, and successful at work, knowing that success is not a one size fit all approach. So this is something that we're constantly trying to think about what are the strategies and work trends change all the time. So, um, that's a long answer to your question, but ultimately I wanted career contested to be a professional development hub and resource for women who. are going to be successful in their careers. What does success look like? How can you ebb and flow with those changes? And that was something at the time, definitely, and even now, I would say most career sites do not address. They don't talk about, you know, they might talk about pay and equity, but they won't talk about how specifically women are um, you know, impacted by that over the long term, or tools that women can do. Um, and I'm by no means putting all the pressure on women. I am just saying, because a lot of the stuff we all know starts at um, a much bigger level. Um, but I, I think it's still important to have a resource, even if it's just not feeling alone in the fact that your career is having a challenging moment, for example, or you need to find a new job and how do you job search in 2023 because the last time you've had a job was in 2019 or something like that.
Rachel: Okay. Wow, that is quite a story. The Master's Thesis Hypothesis adds a very exciting element. I didn't, I didn't know that bit of your, um, your history, so that's tremendous. Thank you for sharing that. And I think, you know, one of the things that you and I have in common, it sounds like is this idea that Success is defined in, in the mind of the person striving to achieve it, right? I think what I hear you saying particularly about millennial women is that they didn't want to come into the workforce and accept the definition of success that had been chosen in the 1950s or choose your decade, right? I think what success looks like, um, We all get to choose that, and then it's about choosing the actions and the behaviors and making the decisions that move us in the direction that we have chosen, but it doesn't necessarily always have to look like more money, more prestige, climbing up a ladder. Um, so that's great, and I think we are, we are very aligned in that way.
Lauren: We are.
Rachel: So one of the things that you and I chatted about a little bit before coming into this conversation, I'm sorry, very quickly. I'm getting this message app is not focused. Does it mean it's bored? I don't know what that means, but we are just large ahead. Sorry, team. Okay. Back to the show. Um, so one of the things Lauren that you and I had been chatting about a little bit before we started this conversation was this idea of being really invaluable in the workplace. And I, and I do love that word. Um, and I thought maybe we could investigate that a little bit. I know that you have a bunch of thoughts and advice on this topic. And you know, what I think is so interesting is that. You know, certainly over the past couple of years, this year in particular, the economy here in the U. S. for sure has been frenetic. A lot of chaos, a lot of anxiety. I don't even know if the economy is up or down right now. It feels like, depends on what you're reading at what time of day. But there has been a lot of uncertainty. We've seen layoffs, right? And I think a lot of people are really Anxious about how do I really claim my space at work and show up as a really valuable asset without necessarily just Churning and grinding and burning the candle at both ends. So I would love to hear Some of your your thoughts on that.
Lauren: Yes, I definitely have some strong thoughts and I think it comes down to being invaluable versus indispensable at work. And I'll kind of compare the differences in a second. But when you are an invaluable contributor in the workplace, you are working on the things that have impact. It doesn't mean, um, you know, naturally you are a talented and hardworking contributor, but you deliver results and you're going to elevate the people that you work with.
And Invaluable contributors stand out because they can be really moved around, um, other places in the company or on the team. And they're trusted that they will [00:07:00] create value and impact wherever they go. So for them, it's not really about the job. It's about the person doing the job. I know we all hate sports metaphors, but let's just use one for a second. It's like the, the soccer player who maybe plays a certain position, but they're able to see what's happening on the field. And so they're able to adapt their own role, um, or their own position, not because they're dictated by the position they're in, but they're dictated by what's happening in the overall game. And that's how they make their decisions. So for example, um, when you're in the workplace, your job might be learning and development, you know, teaching, train management, train, but when COVID happened, we didn't need management training in that in the same way. Maybe we'd really needed, um, crisis management training, or we really needed, um, uh, people helping managers with empathy or communication strategy. So it's kind of the whole mentality of like, You understand what's happening at a broader level and you're able to add value and kind of work on those impactful projects wherever you go. And people always ask me like, Oh, isn't that the same as being indispensable? I like to think of the differences is like this. Indispensable is you do your job and you do it well. Invaluable is you do the job that's needed. Indispensable waits for leadership to take action, whereas Invaluable contributors step in and out of leadership in what Brene Brown calls grounded confidence. Um, Indispensable might escalate issues, where Invaluable finds better ways to fix the issues. Um, Indispensable is a we can't lose you mentality, whereas Invaluable is a we don't want to lose you mentality. Another example, Indispensable working hard is what provides you job security, whereas With invaluable making an impact is what provides you job security. The other big thing here is when you're indispensable, you're primed for overwork versus when you're invaluable, you're primed for valuable work. So I think those before and afters are always helpful visuals for people because we've always been taught be the indispensable employee. But here's the thing when you're indispensable, we can't afford to lose you in that job. So you don't get to advance. You don't get to grow your career as more as easily because we need you there. Um, and so that, for me has been a really big mindset shift slash behavior shifts slash just like a shift in the way I encourage people, especially at this time of, you know, the job market and what's happening career wise is be the person who understands where are the impactful projects right now, what is really important to your boss and drive toward those things.
Rachel: Wow That was a point of view for
Lauren: Yes. Yeah. I told you I have a strong feeling on this.
Rachel: Amazing. And I love that. And that distinction for me is really, really clear. You know, sometimes I talk about the difference between volume versus impact, which I think is, is a little bit related to what you're saying. So somebody indispensable is going to do lots of things. They will get a great volume of things done, but not necessarily be as discerning about which things they're choosing, where they're investing their time and energy and focus. Um, And I love that. And I, and I do think that organizations need that right [00:10:00] now, especially because we are in this world of just such constant evolution and change and this need for people to be agile, you know, in order to be successful in this environment, that's just in constant motion. We have to be better at making choices and decisions and not always be so focused on crossing things off our to do list. Right.
Lauren: Yes. I think, aware enough of like, okay, maybe this is the job I was hired to do, but can I think outside of my job description? Because as we know, the workplace changes so quickly. quickly that like you can't, you can't have a mindset that operates within like here are the confines of my job. And I, I can already hear someone on the other line saying, Oh, well then they are the person who leads to burnout. Cause you say yes to everything. No, it's not that you become a pushover and a people pleaser and you just do all the work to your point all the time. It's about really discerning and being very focused on what are the most important things. There's a great book on this called essentialism, where it's all about. How to focus on less things and do them better. Um, and I think that is also a very important piece of invaluable contributors is to your point. They're not just go, go, go machines.
Rachel: I think that's the first time on Modern Mentors somebody had an argument with somebody who wasn't even here, and I think you won. I think you won for being an invisible person. Um, and yes, we are big fans of the human on the show. Uh, we have talked to him before. So, yeah, I think. Um, I think there's a lot of wisdom in that philosophy. What I could hear somebody on the other line asking about, and I would love to hear, um, how you would advise them, is, okay, Lauren, I, I get it, and I, I want to be that way. But it takes A particular amount of time and energy to be able to step back and sort of, like, move into that more strategic zone, and I don't, I can't do that right now. My to do list is a billion miles long and everything is, is go, go, go, and my boss just wants to see deliverable after deliverable. So if I'm willing to buy in and say, yes, I want to shift from indispensable to invaluable, um, what can I do? What are some steps I can take to get started?
Lauren: Yeah. Some things that you could do 100 percent on your own without including your boss at the moment is number one, determine what's really important to the organization. Now you're probably like, well, it's. It's, you know, like, of course, I'm not trying to actively not figure that out, but sometimes organizations will, um, set out, you know, in the very beginning of the year, here are our goals and our strategies, um, but they change over time. So where you can kind of think about this and pick up on what's really critical for them is think about what are the critical issues for the organization. What are people and customers complaining about that maybe isn't getting fixed? What gets funded? What do they talk about on earnings calls or company wide communication over and over again? Maybe what gets the most visibility? You know, when I worked at Hulu, we had this huge blinky neon sign about how many subscribers we had. It was clear to me that subscribers were very important to them, you know, so they were making it very visible. So you can ask yourself, you know, try to do your own homework about maybe this is what they're saying is important, but here's the message that they're sending every other time I think about the organization. The other thing you can do is try to understand what's important to your specific leader leader. So what does your boss and maybe their boss spend a lot of time on? Um, how much time is being spent discussing specific items between your boss and their boss? Um, what's making your boss's job really hard right now? Um, what maybe comes up in the meeting over and over again. So, you know, there's the things on the agenda and then there are things that don't make it on the agenda, but we talk about all the time because they're clearly what's on people's mind and kind of probably keeping them up at night. Um, what do people talk about in meetings? Like I said, that are not on the agenda and then how is your boss's success measured? One of the early pieces of advice I wish I had is Eat the frog, which is the saying about basically doing the hard work first. And I would just kind of edit it slightly to think about what can you, what, what's a really hard thing for your boss that maybe you could help out with that is a win for them and a win for you. You're able to work on something that's critically important to them, but it's hard for them or challenging, or they don't have the time. So those are some things that you can do. And then, you know, when you start doing these things, everybody has different. relationships with their boss. Sometimes it's important to go to your boss and kind of say, Hey, Hey, here are the things that I'm seeing are being like kind of critical issues here. I've been focusing a lot over here, but I'm going to start shifting over here. Here's my game plan for it. Right. Coming together with solutions. Um, some people are like, my boss doesn't like that. They're not interested. They hardly have time for one on ones. Okay. Then what I would start doing is sending them a weekly status update. You could do it weekly or every two weeks, whatever cadence you're comfortable with, where I basically say on Monday. I send them an email that they don't have to respond to cause they do not want more work on their plate. But here's an email on Monday of all the things I'm working on that I think are important to the organization, my status with them. And on Friday, you know, the wrap up or where I am with things so that you are constantly communicating your contributions and communicating where you are so that when things do shift quickly, you know, instead of you continuing with the project, maybe they're able to stop you really quickly and they can tell you. You know, we've, we've already decided we're going with this direction, so no need to research those things. These are just some quick examples on how to understand what is the valuable work or where the projects are that have a lot of impact.
Rachel: Okay. Yeah, there's some fabulous advice in there. What I hear you describing is sort of a call to action for people to just be more engaged in the context around them. So be reading articles, be dialing into earnings calls, be looking at your company's external facing website and see what they are talking to customers about, read press releases. I hear maybe, or maybe I'm just making this up, but maybe an invitation to be doing some internal networking. So be meeting with colleagues or leaders in other parts of the organization. Maybe if you're sitting in more of a back office support function, maybe talking to some of your customer facing colleagues or leaders, maybe even seeing if you can be invited to their team meetings just to have a little bit more access to information.
Lauren: Yeah. You're hearing this correctly. It's going back to the sports metaphor, like the soccer field, you know, your job might be that position, but what's happening on the whole field, you know, how, how is the other team playing? Because maybe your competition is starting to dictate. The overall strategy. And that changed from January to April, you know, that kind of thing.
Rachel: Yeah. Now I know there's a There is again, there's so much change and I know you work I think you work with people across a pretty wide variety of industries and specialties. I'm curious Are there any trends that you've? kind of seen over the course of 2023 and now rolling into 2024 that you've seen people who are focusing on this or paying attention to this seem to be landing in that invaluable zone.
Lauren: Yes. I think it's the people who are really good at adapting. So they, when there's a problem, they run toward the problem, not away from it. I had a friend who worked for a large tech company and she was recently laid off and she worked there with another friend that we. I knew. And I said, Oh, you know, you know, so and so didn't get laid off. And that's so great. Um, and she was like, I know exactly why so and so didn't get laid off. She said during COVID, when everyone's hair was on fire, there were some. Big, messy problems and that person ran toward the problems. They helped with the problems and they built a very good, uh, relationship with the stakeholders who were, you know, those problems were important to them. And I thought one that was like really great that she kind of had the foresight to be able to say like, in hindsight, I recognize now or the hindsight, uh, to recognize now that I, I didn't run toward those messy problems when things got messy. I kind of stepped back and said, I'll wait for somebody to come and tell me what to do. Um, Versus the person who is leaning into that, um, messiness and say, okay, how can we fix a problem that doesn't mean that again, people who are able to be invaluable, they're, they're able to step in and out of leadership. They might, you know, it's, you show up to a meeting that needs a leader and there's no leader. They're the person who steps up and says, okay, I'll help lead this meeting, but it's not because my ego says I have to lead this meeting. It's because we need someone to lead the meeting so we can figure out what our next steps are and move on. So I think the people that I see who are. Really doing very well right now are the people who are leaning into those messy things. They're able to figure things out on their own. They've got a reputation for figuring out on their own. They take initiative They follow through and they don't just follow through a little bit They follow through really well And those are the traits that people need right now of of workers when work is changing so quickly
Rachel: That's amazing. Now, a lot of what career Contessa does, keep me honest, you do a lot of career coaching, right? A lot of Is it primarily one on one? Is it also group coaching? So,
Lauren: We do have one on one coaching, and then every once in a while, like currently right now, we're selling a group coaching program. Um, but most, like year round, you can get one on one coaching with one of our coaches, yes.
Rachel: Talk to me a little bit about maybe some of the biggest questions or challenges that people have presented to you over the course of 2023.
Lauren: So the mass layoffs has been the biggest challenge because you have a flood of incredible talent who is job searching and they are having a harder time finding a job than they've ever had in their lives. And it is, it is kind of pulling on my heartstrings in a way that even as a career coach, sometimes I don't have. An explanation for why you didn't get the job interview or didn't get that offer. Other than there are just so many, there are so many people also applying for the same job. And so I think that has been something in the coaching, um, world for us this year, where we've had to get like way more specific about how we can help people and, and be way more actual tangible. Yes. Networking is a big piece of it, but not just networking. Like think about who do you network? Okay. Fine. Five employees who used to work at your target, you know, your target company. And so that's become. Just a much bigger piece of the coaching this year is the job search. You have to get 10 times more creative. It's not just a create a great resume and apply. It's everybody does that. So, so don't bother. Um, so what are the other things that you can do?
Rachel: Okay. Interesting. So, just to give listeners a little peek behind the curtain, you and I are talking towards the end of 2023. I believe it will be pretty early in 2024 by the time that hits the airwaves. So happy new year, everybody.
Lauren: Yeah.
Rachel: So you and I, Lauren, are kind of sitting in this place of closing and reflecting and getting ready to power down, but this conversation is actually going to be heard in a moment when hopefully people are in that opposite season of coming out of the holidays, hopefully having had some good rest, maybe setting some big ambitious goals for the new year, um, What do you want to invite people to be thinking about as we start to ramp up 2024? What has you excited? What do you want to create a little bit of energy and enthusiasm around in the workplace?
Lauren: Oh, you know, we just did an episode on workplace predictions and I, there's two that I'm really excited about. Um, one is the rise of salary transparency in job postings. I think that's really going to change the game. Um, having, uh, more employers do that and what we're even finding cause we have a job board at career contest. So the jobs that do not include salary in them are, people are less interested in it. So it's just, it's a, it's an overall. Um, desire for more transparency in the hiring practices, and I really want to see the hiring practices change. It feels like it is so broken, um, with the way people get hired and, you know, that one's a tough one. But, and then the other one that I'm really, really excited about in 2024 that I hope to see more of is the rise of career coaching. Career coaching and executive coaching used to feel like something that, again, only the executives or people really high up in their career got, or Maybe you hired someone if you were like really lost or, you know, returning to the workplace after not having a job for a number of years. I don't think we're going to see that. I think we're going to start seeing way more early and mid level professionals hire a career coach who works with them throughout their career to help guide them. It's like finding someone who has a therapist. You're like, wow, you have that much self awareness to hire a therapist or work on yourself. Like. I want to be around you. And I think there's going to be the workplaces will become better when we integrate more career coaching into just our talent development and learning and development pieces of it. And so I hope to see more of that for employees. And I hope that employers are the ones who are going to you. Provide those benefits that might be a big if but I think that would be a really big Like for me, it's it's a big thing that I'm motivated by is to see more of that in today's just general workplace
Rachel: That's amazing. I hope so. I think we all deserve the gift of
Lauren: Yeah.
Rachel: Somebody sit with us, right? And help us tap into kind of figuring out what it is we want and what the next steps are that we can take to pursue that. So fingers crossed for everybody. So Sorry. Um, so Lauren, I want to ask you, I know career coaching is what Career Contessa does, and I hope anybody who has the, the means and the ability to hire a coach will consider reaching out. I think you bring tremendous value to the table, so strong endorsement here. Um, if I can ask, for somebody who, who maybe doesn't have the means or doesn't have the opportunity right now, um, are there any tips you can offer somebody on how they can maybe be their own coach for a little bit until they're ready to hire one.
Lauren: Yeah, I mean one of the best things you can do is peer peer coaching, you know Find a peer who is similar to you in the stage of their career. Maybe you guys have similar goals. Um, how can you work with each other and keep, you know, almost work as like an accountability partner, buddy system for yourself. Like, okay, I want, when I was starting my business every other Friday, I met with another entrepreneur who was early on in starting her business and different businesses, but overlapped enough that we had something to talk about every other Friday, we would have an accountability call of like, You said you were going to do these things. How's this thing going? It helped me tremendously, especially when you are navigating your career and there's so many things that you can do. Um, I think that's a really important thing that you can do. The other thing, the number one thing I think you can do to be your own career coach is keep a work journal. And we have a template for this on career contest. I talk a lot about this in my book power moves, but, um, keep a work journal, you know, um, at the end of the week, the compliment, what did you accomplish? Any compliments you got, any things that maybe you got tough feedback on that, you know, you need to work on. What about interpersonal communication things that happened this week that you want to take note of the, the people who are basically their own career coach. They. They take time to invest in these self reflective exercises on a regular basis. One woman I interviewed for my book, every Tuesday, or sorry, every Friday from two to 3 p.m., which I would tell people that would not be my perfect time to do this, but from two Friday, two to 3 p. m. She, it was her one hour of career development. So, and she prioritized it every week. Sometimes she would listen to a podcast. Sometimes she would try to set up, you know, internal networking with someone at her company.
Sometimes she would just fill out her, um, work journal and get caught up with herself. And so I think that is probably the best thing free. Like I said, we have a template on career contest that you could do to be your own career coach right now.
Rachel: Wow. Those sound like fantastic ideas and I, I, it's funny, I mean some of these words that you're using, pure coaching, accountability, um, these are things I talk about all the time on Modern Mentor. I think that, I think that a [00:26:00] lot of us, Um, and I think that's sort of live in this mindset that we are to a certain degree helpless about certain things and we can't move until the organization invites us or the organization provides a policy or a benefit or a program and I think what I'm hearing from you is just this tremendous sense of Empowerment, right? And I always tell people there are always tons of things you can't control but there are always some things that you can and so find something that is within your locus of control and take an action and absolutely find, find a buddy, um, hold each other accountable and just every small action. I, I, um, I've shared at some point on the journey of this podcast. I listened to this interview once with this gentleman who had decided that he wanted to lose a hundred pounds and for years and years he sat sort of staring down the barrel of a hundred pound weight loss journey and just felt so. So overwhelmed by it. And then one day he just had this revolution, I'm gonna… a revelation. Um, he said, I'm gonna lose one pound and then I'm gonna do it a hundred times. And, and that was what he did. And it was just a mindset shift, right? It's the same math. Um, so just thinking about like, what is that small step you can take today? And then, and then what's the next one?
Lauren: Yeah. I really liked that. I, for my book, I interviewed a lot of people and I basically was asking them, you're fulfilled in your career. Like what, how did that happen? You know, And I would say one of the common themes, which I talked about as becoming like a power moves approach, but basically it was, they were very proactive in their career versus reactive. And I think a lot, pretty much what you just said is people are kind of waiting for permission. They want to react when something is brought toward them, but the people who are the most fulfilled in their career, they're looking ahead. Again, they they're seeing the whole soccer field and they are. being proactive about where they go and where they position themselves on the field. And I think that is really valuable to, to like, I like the visual of it. I think it really helps me kind of connect the dots. So one thing I would just tell the people who are listening to this today is like, are you being proactive or reactive? Are you in the driver's seat or are you in the back of the bus? You know, and that's something to think about.
Rachel: So Lauren, as we start to get ready to wrap up here, is there anything that I haven't asked you that you feel would be a really important piece to help close out this conversation?
Lauren: I think that, you know, 2023 has been a tough year. Anyone job searching, it's been a tough year. And so one of the things I learned on my show, um, my podcast, that was really important to me. I always thought that, you know, in tough times you needed to really talk yourself up and that confidence was the best thing you needed. But I learned later on from the author who wrote the book, um, self compassion that self compassion is probably one of the most powerful tools that you can learn and what it does when you show yourself self compassion. You are not taking the easy way out. You are not settling. You're not like justifying like, Oh, you didn't get the job. Don't worry. You'll get it next time. But what you are doing is saying that this is a really tough job market and you need to keep trying and what can you do to keep kind of going? So it's almost like staying, holding tight to the end goal, but being really flexible about the process and it's going to be challenging.
And so my best advice to people is also learn the art of self compassion. So many of us were taught the art of, um, You know self confidence and how that was the most important thing and what they've actually found for like kind of continuing with your goals and hitting them is is Working in self compassion that inner critic that tells you You're an idiot and that's why you didn't get the job to somehow pump you up to get the next job Isn't actually doing you any favor. So that one really stuck with me in terms of some of the advice I've gotten over the years.
Rachel: I love that. And I think self compassion sounds like a really beautiful place from which to start 2024.
Lauren: Yes
Rachel: Amazing. Lauren, this has been an invaluable conversation. I hope I used that word correctly and did it service. Um, I have so enjoyed this. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Lauren: Thank you for having me.
I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Lauren McGoodwin. To get more of her in your ears, check out the Career Contessa podcast for advice on all the career things!
Join me next week for another great episode. Until then, visit my website at leadabovenoise.com if your organization is looking to crack its activation code- dialing up performance and engagement. You can follow Modern Mentor on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Find and follow me on LinkedIn. Thanks so much for listening and have a successful week.
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