Rachel sits down with Bonnie Davis, co-founder of HuWork, to answer your questions about building more human-centered workplaces. You’ll also hear how Bonnie and her co-founder built HuWork by combining their corporate experience, research, and coaching backgrounds along with why celebrating strengths is key to sustainable change.
Rachel sits down with Bonnie Davis, co-founder of HuWork, to answer your questions about building more human-centered workplaces. You’ll also hear how Bonnie and her co-founder built HuWork by combining their corporate experience, research, and coaching backgrounds along with why celebrating strengths is key to sustainable change.
Rachel: Okay. Bonnie Davis, co-founder of HU Work. What a pleasure it is to have you on the Modern Mentor Podcast. Thank you for being here.
Bonnie: Hi Rachel. Thanks for asking me to join you today.
Rachel: No, I've been really looking forward to this conversation. You have done a lot of interesting work. I love following you being connected with you on LinkedIn. you have a lot of insights and a lot of wisdom, and I know a lot of it is gonna feel really tangible and practical for the listeners today. And so I am excited to dive in.
do you wanna start with just the two sentence elevator pitch around what HU work does?
Bonnie: Only two sentences. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, I'd be happy to. I'll start with the name. So Hugh Work, we got that as a mashup of humans at work because we are really passionate about being human centered. So my business partner and I came from big careers, similar to you, big corporate careers.
Didn't always feel like things were so human in terms of leadership practices and culture. And so that was our vision mission, to show up and connect with companies to make sure that changes. And so even to bring those words human-centered into their language, to give them tools to do that. So we do consulting, facilitation, and coaching that help make that a reality on the organization level, the team level, and the leader level, and.
Change is the theme in everything that we do. We both have a background in change management and a lot of passion for making change that sticks.
Rachel: Beautiful. Thank you for that. And I would love to start, and we can go in lots of different directions, but. I would love to start with the assessment that your organization has put out because I think it is, it does a really great job. Oh. I think a lot of people talk about this concept of more humanity in the workplace, and I think we mean that kind of generically.
You know it when you see it, but I can't actually define it. And I think you've actually done some work to. put some meat on the bones of what that means. And so I would love if, you could talk a little bit about the assessment and what it is grounded in. What does it mean to be human at work?
Bonnie: Yeah, and this was so important to us because when we played around with, so a little bit of just transparent history, so my business partner and I, we both had businesses going into joining forces to create He Work. And so when we then thought about, and we were partnering on projects and we said, why not go to market together as a we instead of a me?
For me personally, I have never in my life been athletic, always the last kid to pick, to be picked in gym class, but I started running in my adult life and the fir, I finally started moving from a mile to a 5K and then half marathons by running with friends. And it's really when I moved from New York to Denver, I made closer friends through running and through meeting women that we'd run together with.
So it was a lesson for me. Having buddies helped. Being in partnership with people is something that really makes. Me happy. And when we decided to do that, I said, this human-centered idea is getting overused. And that was pre covid. That was like 2018. So now it's really getting overused.
So I said, we really need an assessment, as you said, to put some meat on the bones. And so it has seven focus areas. First of all, it's free, so if you have the ability to share the link, I encourage anybody to, yep.
Rachel: we will have that link in the show notes,
so
Bonnie: excellent. So there's seven pillars in the assessment. I will talk, go through all of them, but it's things like your, what are your purpose and values, your processes and rituals.
What are the, is there a sense of community? What happens around growth and recognition and wellbeing? So those are some of the key areas. So each of those areas has about five or six questions, and they're specific. They're meant to be action oriented questions to assess. How is that going on your team or in your organization?
And it's based on a combination of our experience working inside big companies, working with our clients, a whole bunch of research that we've done. I think like you, we are big readers of, fast Company, Harvard Business Review, listen to podcasts. So somehow all of that information gets Like soup in your brain, a lot of ingredients.
And we spent a lot of time to put it together. And we also, we did it in 20, we talked about this for a while, and then in 2020 when the world shut down and all of a sudden we had more time on our hands, we're like, we're gonna finally do this. And so we did a lot of back and forth, and then we ran it by.
People in our network who were in senior HR roles to say, what do you think? Just to get some feedback on it. And so when you take it, you an answer the questions, and then the output is a really wonderful visual. It's a spider diagram, so you can really quickly see the highs and the lows and the in between.
So the questions all wind up these seven areas. You can see it visually. there's some lightweight tips in there. It's not gonna change your life, but there's some lightweight tips that you get in your report. And then we have been publishing a series of articles on LinkedIn, Right now we're about halfway through that series where each of those seven areas we are going deeper and we are providing quite a lot of actions and ideas and tips.
Also collecting case studies, some mini best practices from companies that are doing these things well. So it's, they really go together, the articles with the action and then the assessment to understand and I really wanna also emphasize. We don't want you to just look at your problem areas to fix.
We want you to get really clear on what your company and your culture and your leadership style are doing well, because I am a strengths-based coach and I'm all for leaning into the good stuff and being more intentional about it and celebrating it. So it also gives you the highlights.
Rachel: Really nice. Thank you. And I wanted, I wanna dig into what some of those actions and behaviors and some of those insights are, but before we get there, I just wanna ask you. As I look at the pillars in this assessment, they all sound delightful. but I'm curious if you ever experience any resistance from leaders who say, sure, purpose is important and culture is important, but it's really about results, Bonnie.
And I'm not looking to make my, company feel soft. I'm not looking to make it feel like people are on vacation. I'm obviously loading this question 'cause I hear resistance like this sometimes as well, but how do you talk to leaders who feel like a workplace culture that is too human is somehow not going to be as highly performing?
I.
Bonnie: Yeah. it's a, it's, I totally agree. I think people that do the work that we do always get some form of that resistance and, I think when you have assessment results. even the most successful leaders, they don't, they wanna win. They wanna score big. And so it's interesting to actually have the results and look and go, oh, maybe that is a problem if we're scoring low on purpose and values, for example, which is different than me saying, what you need to do in your company, CEO.
People need more empathy. Do they just need more empathy and compassion and that's where you get sometimes the eye roll and the pushback. But when they actually see data, they actually see a score. A lot of them get fired up and I don't say, I wouldn't say you need to fix that 'cause it's low. Of course.
As a coach, I'm gonna ask what's important about that for you? What are you noticing in your culture? And I'll say something like, the companies that you've been in that are most successful, tell me what having a sense of purpose and values has meant there. So it doesn't become a one size fits all solution.
It becomes a, I'm gonna meet you where you are, solution if you don't want all those touchy, feely, soft things. Then that's not gonna work because if you're not supportive of that stuff, then it's not gonna land for your company. So we find a version that works for them. And usually I haven't had the full pushback to be like, you know what we wanna do here?
We wanna just get a bunch of robots. And I have to say, I think the buy-in for this has really improved. I'm gonna say in the last year or two because of ai, there are even some of those. Leaders who were more about results and the operations and the stuff and not the people part are like, whoa, people are afraid the of the robots taking over.
We're afraid of losing the human touch. Sometimes data helps with some of these leaders. You've seen that yourself. Trust is very low, loneliness is very high. So I think that people who were more like what you're describing are getting a little bit more afraid that they're, they need to do more to engage and motivate and take care of their people.
Noticing that, I'm curious, are you noticing that too, that it's, those conversations are easier now than maybe they were five years ago?
Rachel: I am starting to notice a little bit of a shift. I am feeling like. the, whole talent landscape has changed. And I think especially top talent these days has largely come to the conclusion that they can be more demanding of the experience they get at work. And people aren't generally, as accepting of.
you get a paycheck, so deal with it and move on. And so I do think that more and more companies are recognizing that, when you create a sense of belonging, when people feel part of a community that is your workplace, when they have connection, when they feel trust and safety so that they can speak their ideas.
not only does it make people loyal, but I also feel like leaders are recognizing. we get better results. Like when our employees feel empowered to speak up. They're the ones on the front lines. They are often the ones who see the fractures in our system. They're the ones interfacing with our customers.
They are the ones engaging with our technology. If I'm a leader sitting in the ivory tower, I don't know when something's broken. I don't know what's angering or frustrating our customers, but my employees on the front lines do. And so when they feel trust and safety enough to speak up, to raise a flag and say, you know what?
I've noticed that this glitch. Has caused three, three customer complaints this week. Can we look into that? Creating a culture where people feel safe to speak, that, it enhances results, right? It hits bottom and top line. And so I think the more that people like you and me can highlight those areas where it's not just about the human feeling and the human experience, but the human experience in service of better results, customer loyalty, more profit, I think that's where, I think that's where we start to win.
Bonnie: I agree. I think another pain point is return to office and a lot of leaders just feeling like just one exhausted from that topic, but two, like if they're, as a lot of cultures have become fully remote or hybrid, they are looking for new and different ways. And so having an assessment to understand where are we at to fill those gaps that we feel like we suddenly have, 'cause we don't see each other all the time.
That's been another driver to get people to pay more attention to the people side of their business.
Rachel: Absolutely. So you were very clear in that it's not a one size fits all sort of approach. And it is gonna be a very custom experience. That said, I assume there have to be some practices that you generally see be more. Commonly appreciated, maybe more successful than others. Specifically in this realm of kind of trust and connection and belonging and community, are there any particular practices that have become favorites of yours that you have seen clients implement or that you've, just seen be successful in your corporate travels?
Bonnie: Yeah, so I'm sure we could compare notes on our favorites, but, the first thing that comes to mind for me is companies that have rituals in place. And because people get a little bit overwhelmed of we don't have time and money for offsites and big training programs. And you know what, those are nice, but you and I have both seen those where they're one and done and they're not sustainable.
And so this idea of having. Rituals. as simple as team meetings and one-on-ones, and if you are in person lunches at whatever intervals, but also just the way you can communicate. So in your team meetings, are you just going through the laundry list of the agenda items or are you creating white space for people to openly share when you've just come off of holidays, are you asking people about their traditions and giving them that ch chance for their voices to be heard and their unique parts of their lives to come through?
Or are you just. Skating through and doing business as usual. So thinking about what are those rituals and we have an article on rituals and processes that we have on LinkedIn. I think that's the, foundational part. Do you do something for people's birthdays? Do you, how do you celebrate success?
You've just gotten a win and, a customer win internal or extra. What do you do? do you keep going or do you have ways to celebrate success? So collectively, these might sound like really tactical, lightweight things, one off, but collectively, when I think about the best teams I've been part of, they had these rituals where just this, the humanity came out and.
The flip side is we see a lot of companies now where it's this like time scarcity, too busy, always on mindset, and they're not slowing down for those things, or I. Even companies that are in the office, you see you, this has become, believe it or not, a ritual of sorts of everyone you walk into an office. I had this last week, I was on site with a client and everyone has headphones in, so they're not even like checking in to go, Hey, I have a quick question.
What do you think of this? Or even, do you wanna grab lunch or chitchat on a Monday morning? so looking around and understanding both in person and virtual, what are the. The connection points that exist or are missing just for people to have and these, ways of connecting, and it all comes down to relationships.
And relationships mean better collaboration and all of that mean all of those business results that you talked about. So making sure that there's natural ways that people are building those relationships, communicating, collaborating, if you're doing those alone, you're gonna be in much better shape than a lot of other companies.
Rachel: That's great. I think those are all really powerful. I know. I'm just gonna build on a couple of your ideas. You talked about the power of celebrating the big wins. If there's a customer win, do you pause? And I think that's super important. I also really encourage my clients to. Not only focus on the big shiny wins, but also celebrating just the small acts of bravery, of courage, of sharing a new idea, asking a quote unquote dumb question that unlocks things right.
I think a lot of companies have gotten reasonably good, I think, at celebrating the big wins and the big milestones. But the more we can celebrate the behaviors that we wanna see repeated, I'm seeing more of those types of celebrations to be really successful. I also really I've had a couple of clients set up these kind of internal, who's in today dashboards, whether it lives on Slack or some sort of shared drive so that if you're going into the office on a day, you know who's there and who's available for lunch.
And maybe you even have a couple of your interests, in a profile so that people can set up a lunch with you because they wanna talk about their favorite book or, it doesn't necessarily have to be work related. So those are a couple of rituals I've seen. About, what did you call it, time scarcity.
Bonnie: That's a big problem. Never enough. Never enough. Never enough.
Rachel: there's never enough time, and yet what I'm also finding is. When we say we don't have time, what we mean is that we can't fit the stuff we wanna do on top of the stuff that's already scheduled. What we're not as good about is really questioning what's already scheduled, because I'm finding that there are so many just meetings that have been standing for, years and years, and we're not questioning the value of those meetings.
And I love to tell my clients to take a, Marie Kondo approach, right? When you clean out your closet, you have to first empty it. You have to
Bonnie: I like
Rachel: take everything off the calendar and then justify what goes back because I, I think you're right. It's, we are so busy doing the things that it's hard to create the time, and yet if we wanna have this human workplace, we have to be disciplined in creating that time.
Bonnie: Yeah, and I'll, it doesn't have to take a lot of time, I will tell people Monday morning, whether you're at the water cooler, or on web, or on Zoom, or on WebEx. First meeting of the day, what do you say? Hey Rachel, how was your weekend? what do you say?
Rachel: Good.
Bonnie: Yeah, it was good. How was yours? What if instead I asked, Hey, Rachel, what was one fun thing you did this weekend?
Rachel: I love that. A more specific question that demands an answer.
Bonnie: And it basically, it's one word thinking. It requires you to think and you're like, what did I do this weekend anyway? It was just yesterday. I don't know. But it's not an automated robotic answer. it, becomes thoughtful. And so it means that now we're having a real dialogue. Oh, I was at my kid's soccer game.
Hey, my kid plays soccer and we're finding commonalities. And this can take three minutes instead of 20 seconds. and it's, and we're, building connection and we're building shared experiences and we're building our relationship. So it doesn't even have to be like a time, thing.
Sometimes it's a little bit of a light skills and just, people say to me, I can do that. I'm like, great, then go for it. Take that question on a Monday morning, that's yours. it could be little things. and the other piece is I agree with what I love that Maria Kondo Marie Kondo approach, I'm always with, dealing with time management and the client's saying, three Ds, dump it, delegate it, do it differently.
And often I can't dump anything. Delegation. my team is so overloaded. then let's talk about doing it differently. And that's like. We're not gonna do 60 meeting minute meetings anymore. We're only gonna do 50 minute meetings, and that gives you 10 minutes to chitchat with people between meetings or 10 minutes to go for a walk or 10 minutes to get that email done or whatever.
there's so many ways to do it differently. I had a client that realized recently, it's 10 page report can really be boiled down to an email without all the formatting and all the time and. Went to the senior leader and said, Hey, I'm trying to find better ways of using my time. I don't know if you realize this, but this takes me about six to eight hours to do.
Would it be okay if I gave you the email summary and the leader was like, that takes you six to eight hours? I had no idea. No, I don't want you spending that. I don't need all of that. But how often do we just check in with stakeholders and say. Could I do it differently? So there are lots of ways to just pause, stop making assumptions, break the status quo.
You're right. Clean house. and then of course there's all the meetings that you know, you don't need 10 people. That could be six people. And we get, have a whole show of course, on, on these strategies. 'cause I get a little bit, geek. I geek out on the life hacks 'cause it really can make a difference.
Rachel: Yeah. But what I love about that example that you just shared is that. Not only did it increase humanity, but it also increased efficiency, right? A lot of times when we increase efficiency, not through kind of robotic cuts, but through really giving people permission to raise flags and say, there are pieces of my work that are really painful and inefficient.
Which kind of reads inhumane. And if I were empowered to, to streamline it, to, to speed it up, I'm having a more human experience and I'm saving the organization time that I could be doing something more strategic with. So there's a real win-win for people and organizations. I think when we frame it correctly.
Bonnie: Yeah, and I love that word empowered because I think a lot of people are just, you just go, 'cause you've been told to go and you don't feel empowered to stop and question. And yet most bosses would prefer that their team question the inefficiencies. But for some reason we just feel like we don't have that permission.
Rachel: Yeah, it's a bummer. So speaking of empowered, I know one of the pillars in your survey is all employee behaviors.
Bonnie: Yes.
Rachel: I imagine the water cooler chatter example that you gave is probably one of them. But I would love to talk about, for people who feel like, I'm a frontline contributor. I'm not in a leadership role.
I wanna do my part, I wanna, start from the ground up and just bring a little bit more humanity into my workplace. where can people start? What do you recommend?
Bonnie: Yeah, The first is, I know a topic that's also near dear to your heart, which is listening, which is just truly listening with heart and just taking those moments to deeply listen to what is going on with people. it is taking the extra beat to. Care and whether it's what's going on with your family and how is your weekend or just that problem you're trying to solve and, going deeper and supporting and having more of that, I have your back attitude of maybe we can figure that out together.
Tell me more about that. And I, with listening that goes hand in hand with curiosity is just to better understand what people are working on, what their strengths are, what gets them excited and really like, how can we. Better partner together. How can we collaborate more? How can we partner more? How can we communicate better?
So just having that continuous improvement mindset about your relationships at work is a really great way to start. And then just. Transparency goes along with all of that. I saying, I, I'm not gonna make that deadline and here's what you can expect instead. Or saying, in that meeting when you said that thing, I just wanna let you know that this is how it went over.
Or saying, it feels like in this situation we're not communicating the way we should. How can we improve things? So we just tolerate and ignore a lot of. Bad behaviors at work for many reasons. Personally, I'm guilty, I am conflict averse, so I get it. some of this can feel like we're engaging in conflict, but I just try to flip the framing on that and say, as long as you're coming, the intention is improve relationships, and the intention behind that is more productivity, then it's all good.
Bring it on.
Rachel: Yeah, and I agree with what you're saying and I think it really has been exacerbated since the pandemic and since we started working in these hybrid ways. I can't tell you how many in-person offsites I've run for clients. Where employees, colleagues who've been working together for a year, two years have never met each other in person.
They only know each other from these boxes on screens. And it's, and I'm a big believer in hybrid work, don't get me wrong. And I think, there is a place for in-person experiences if the budget is there. And also I think it's important to acknowledge that building relationships is a different animal on screen.
I think your point about curiosity is really well taken, I think. Being curious about somebody, but also being curious about. What somebody may have meant. I noticed that people more and more are quick to make assumptions about, he said this, so he thinks that about me. And so he hates me and I hate him too.
and I'm obviously being a little bit dramatic, but there's a lot of very quick assumptions being made rather than I. Hey, Bonnie, when you said that, can you just clarify what you meant? I wanna start with an assumption of positive intent, and if you meant to offend me, let's hash it out, but nine outta 10.
I don't think that's what you meant. And so showing up, like you said, with that blend of transparency, I want you to know how that came across, but also curiosity. Can you tell me more about what you meant? when you made that comment about how I speak or how I engage with clients? Tell me more about that.
I think there's a lot of room for that in the workplace because I think you're right, we're absorbing a lot of negativity, but a lot of it is just based on assumptions that may not even be accurate.
Bonnie: Yeah, I mean is these are all cognitive shortcuts back to being busy. We just, we fill in the blanks because it's fast and we are like, I know this personality type. I've seen it before, and we just take the shortcuts. So I totally agree. I actually did a team workshop with a team a few months ago, and they, I do a workshop where you, we organically create.
Team agreement. So what are the things that being on this team mean to us that are really important? And one of them, and I had never seen a team do this before. Usually they're pretty standard trust, communication roles and responsibilities. But this one team, they called out positive intent as something that they wanted to have as one of their team agreements because they felt like continuously that was the rub, that was the tension of they were not giving each other the benefit of the doubt and.
Then when I checked in with them three months later, they had all these powerful examples of where that was coming through and, they realized, and then some of them were like, and I realize I'm doing this in my personal life, that I'm not giving people the benefit of the doubt. And so they talk about humanity, that was really cool that they had that aha and that they were going with it.
Rachel: That's a real win. So I wanna ask you selfishly, you alluded earlier, no, you stated earlier that you are a strengths-based coach. a lot of what I hear around me and sometimes it's in my own head. We can tend to be, we're talking about kind of assumptions of negativity, but sometimes we are the worst with ourselves when it comes to some of these things.
And I would love it for somebody who maybe does not have the good fortune of the budget to work with you one-on-one. any tips that you can offer around how we can take a strengths-based coaching approach with ourselves or with a colleague? What does that look like? What does that sound like?
Bonnie: Yeah, I love that question. so many things 'cause I do a lot of work in this space. So for starters, I'll give another plug for another free assessment, which is called standout. And so standout will give you your top two strengths roles. And this is. How we tend to show up in any situation. And so you can use that strengths lens.
So my top two roles are connector provider. And so sometimes when I am stuck, I will just ask myself, how would a connector provider solve this problem to get myself unstuck? And so that is one way. The other thing is thinking about. Connecting, engaging with people in strengths-based ways. So again, I'll get back to simple chitchat example.
We get to a cocktail party or we get to the soccer field or whatever social situation, personal or professional, and we ask, Hey Rachel, what do you do for a living? What do you do for work? And somebody like you, you're gonna light up and tell me what you do and it's going, you're gonna probably start an engaging conversation.
Many people, I'm a financial analyst, I'm a lawyer, I. Okay, so a strengths-based question would be, Hey Rachel, what do you love about your work?
Rachel: That is really interesting. really interesting because it puts me as the answerer in a, mindset of hunting for something that I enjoy about it.
Bonnie: Yeah, exactly. It literally forces you to think about the positive before you're just going right to the negative. And now you also, I have now sparked an emotional, and I don't mean an emotional, like I'm bringing you to tears in a positive emotion. I've now engaged with you in an emotional way so that.
The base of our relationship, we're now talking about something meaningful and warm and joyful instead of complaining about, the, long lines of Costco, which, I'm, I, so often I'm in my social life, I'm like, why am I talking about this? Like complaining and negativity, There are ways to engage each other in these strengths-based kind of conversations.
but it takes work. you're right, the negativity is there. You probably know this. We are wired for negativity. Our brains naturally go there. I think like you, I do a lot of 360 degree assessments. People consistently score themselves lower. I work with Apple and some really high performing companies and people very consistently score themselves lower.
They are, we're really hard on ourselves, so we need to overcome that. And then the last thing I would say is just for people to do their own little light research on negativity, bias, and imposter syndrome because. Literally our brains are hardwired to always find a negative because that's what survival means.
So just study up a little bit and learn more about what that means so that we can overcome that tendency and be kinder to ourselves. self-compassion is really important. Kristen Neff, who may have read her work, she's an expert on self-compassion. She talks about. Talking to yourself the way you would talk to your best friend or your sister.
Like we, we are, we're so mean to ourselves. We wouldn't talk to our best friend that way. So being kinder and, our self-compassion is also important.
Rachel: Really nice. Thank you, Bonnie. Is there anything that I haven't asked you about building a more human workplace that feels important today?
Bonnie: I would say for people to be honest about where do I have some control over helping to influence a more human-centered workplace. So even if you're not in a leadership role, that's okay. You can still take the assessment and pick one or two things on there, even if it's your own action to go, you know what, I'm committed to more active listening with my, I'm committed to more curiosity.
but there also could be things that, that. Be bold, be courageous because if you are feeling the rub of things that can be more human centered in your organization, you're probably not alone. So I would just encourage people to take some action, feel like they can be an advocate. And of course, if you are in an HR or leadership role, then prioritize.
It could be. Just a few things can really make a difference for your organization to feel more human centered. We're not talking about a major overhaul, and sometimes the difference is, actually being strengths based and going, wow, we're good at that already. Let's be even more intentional about the things that we're already good at.
It's not even always big change, Take some ownership because it can really make a big difference. 'cause in my opinion, this is people's health. This is, this can avoid burnout. It can mean that you literally are healthy or it means that you're, you come home and you're not as grumpy with your children or are not as grumpy with the person who rings up your groceries.
So I also believe that the domino effect of more human-centered workplaces is bigger than just our work. And that is one of the things that gets me so excited about doing this. This?
Rachel: Beautiful. One of the phrases I love to use with my clients is this idea that I call focus on your locus. So there are always gonna be a million things that are totally out of our control, and there's always gonna be at least one thing that's within our control. So let's focus there. So I love that, that take action, and I really love that idea about.
Start with where you're already doing well and just turn the dial up on that. I think that's a really powerful space to play. If you're in like 40 meetings a week and you're losing your mind, but one of those meetings is like really great, think about what makes that meeting great and what can you take from that and infuse into just one other meeting and just start there.
I think
Bonnie: Yeah, this is actually, I know you mentioned, I'll go full circle to LinkedIn. This is my next LinkedIn post, which was, I just finished the book Reset by Dan Heath and, and Bright Spots. He talks about bright spots. He talks about when we, fix things, we look for the problems to fix, but first look for what's working and do more of it.
And I have a, my LinkedIn post is all about bright spots, so there you go.
Rachel: I cannot wait to read it. it's very weird. I also just finished that book and my team is in the process of reaching out to him. Dan Heath, if you're listening and I'm sure you are, please come on the.
Bonnie: Yeah, that would be great. I will listen. he's, awesome. I really, like his work. A
Rachel: Well, Bonnie, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much Again, we will have links in the show notes for where people can find more about you, your organization, and your amazing assessment. But thank you so much for being here today.
Bonnie: Thank you Rachel. This was a fun conversation.