Struggling to stand out on LinkedIn? Rachel welcomes Danielle Hughes, Chief Personality Officer, to discuss how to build a genuine personal brand without oversharing. She shares tips on how to showcase your personality professionally, make meaningful connections, and grow your career with confidence.
Struggling to stand out on LinkedIn? Rachel welcomes Danielle Hughes, Chief Personality Officer, to discuss how to build a genuine personal brand without oversharing. She shares tips on how to showcase your personality professionally, make meaningful connections, and grow your career with confidence.
For more information on Danielle's work... check out her website https://www.morethanwordscopy.com/
Modern Mentor is hosted by Rachel Cooke. A transcript is available at Simplecast.
Have a question for Modern Mentor? Email us at modernmentor@quickanddirtytips.com.
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RACHEL: Daniel Hughes, Chief Personality Officer. Welcome to the Modern Mentor podcast. I'm so happy to have you here.
DANIELLE: I'm so happy to be here. Thank you so much, Rachel.
RACHEL: Oh, it's my pleasure. I have been really looking forward to this conversation because you are a lovingly loud voice in my ears when it comes to personal branding. But, but you have a little bit of a different take on it, which I'm excited about. Um, personal branding in the context of the professional world, a lot of stuff about LinkedIn and LinkedIn is, is certainly where I hang out.
I know a lot of my audience hangs out there. Um, a lot of people have a lot of questions about how do we use it? How do we show up on it? How do we use it to find a job, to build our brand, to do all of the things. And so I am excited to cover a lot of ground with you today.
DANIELLE: Thank you. I love lovingly loud. That is, I have never heard that before. Um, and it feels very apt and I like that so much. Thank you.
RACHEL: My pleasure. All right. So let's go ahead and get started. You talk about this concept that you call a genuine personality brand. And there are a lot of people talking about personality brands these days. So tell us what your take is on that.
DANIELLE: Yeah. So to me, I'm a copywriter by trade and I've spent my whole career in copywriting and marketing and branding. And when I first heard the term personal brand, It never made sense to me. And even as a raging extrovert, it, you know, the word personal means private. So, and yet the concept of personal brand is sharing everything with everyone.
So there's a complete disconnect between the meaning of the word and what it's become. And I think as business and your professional brand and messaging has evolved over these past, like. That's a 10 years. People have felt this pressure that it's an all or nothing that in order to add something and fuse their personal brand into their professional message.
They have to basically, you know, open up the closet and share all the dirty secrets. And I always felt like our personality is who we are. And. That's what allows us to foster connection and build relationships. And so I said, you know, it's not personal branding. It's personality, because in, in the workspace, you have to showcase some of who you are, and otherwise you're not going to get noticed.
You're not going to get attention. You're not going to find the right connections or advancement, all of those things. And so I just felt like that gives people a guardrail. And a boundary. And it's like, I don't need to know everything about you, but what are you comfortable sharing? And how is that going to help you feel more comfortable showing up as yourself and forge those necessary connections?
RACHEL: Really, really nicely said. And I do think that there is this conversation in the ether right now about, you know, finding the balance point between being vulnerable and being authentic, but not oversharing. And do I still have a right to privacy? And of course, the answer is yes. And so I think a lot of people are struggling with that.
Um, so good. I'm excited to delve in a little bit deeper.
DANIELLE: Thank you. And I think some people are naturally more willing to be vulnerable and I also think there's another word like there's levels of vulnerability, you know, I think we were just talking offline and I mentioned how I had a workshop this week and I had a lot of technical problems and it went very poorly for the first, like, 15 minutes.
And I lost my, you know what, uh, my mind and, um, and then I shared a video on Instagram and it was the most commented video I've probably posted in a year because I was like, I effed up and here's what happened. And people relate to that. And that's not normally my thing, but it's the kind of stuff that generates, I think, a lot of goodwill and people just want to know that we're all not perfect and we all make mistakes.
And that is very. Consoling to, to, to people in business.
RACHEL: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I, um, you know, some, some years ago, cause this feels like a relevant story. I had brought my dog to the groomer and. Maybe an hour or two later, I got a call from the groomer who was totally panicked. They had like nicked my dog, but they had taken her to the vet and they had her bandaged up and, and they were going to take her back.
They were going to come to my house and pick her up the next day to take her to a follow up appointment. And they were so terrified to tell me this story. And I, I remember I said to her, listen, like. Making mistakes is human. It's about how do you how did you handle it? Right? How did you come back? And sometimes I think that the best way I'm not suggesting that we make mistakes in our with intention.
But I think a lot of us when we make any sort of mistake, it's our instinct to hide it and you know, to sweep it under the rug because we want to show up as perfect and polished. We can show up as accountable and you. It and to make sure we're, we're doing the right thing and we've learned so it won't happen again.
I think there's a lot of, of fuel that that gives us.
DANIELLE: Agreed. And it helps. I'm a control freak. So, of course, realizing that I could not control that there was everything that happened was completely beyond my control. No matter what I did. It doesn't make it better. Just is a reminder that sometimes you just gotta let go and everyone will forgive you. And it's how you rebound.
That is the most important thing.
RACHEL: totally. So I would love to get your take, Danielle. You know, one of the things that is coming up in conversations all over the place for me these days with clients, with friends, whomever it may be, I feel like a lot of people are struggling in some ways at work. They're struggling with. I don't know.
They're, they're bored. They're disconnected. They're lonely. It's blah. Do I need a new job? Do I not need a new job? Um, and so I just, I want to get a little bit of your hot take on this. I'm a big believer that whether or not you're actively looking for a job, I think it's always important to be cultivating your, uh, your online presence and your offline presence at any given time.
So talk to us a little bit about why incorporating your personality into your professional branding is really important today in, in the workplace, in the job market, wherever you may be.
DANIELLE: Yeah. And I think you kind of hit the nail on your head when you talked about there's a lot of people feeling a lot of different Emotions and things about the workplace and their workplace, and that all speaks to the culture. And, you know, how did you, how did you take this job? How did you end up in this culture?
Was it even ever the right fit for you? And I think a lot of the times, one of the reasons that a role might not be right for someone or an organization might not be right for someone is because they have a resume. That just sort of matches the job description and they have all the skills, but they haven't taken to account what the environment is going to be like, and whether their personality and who they are as a person is going to fit into that environment.
And it's a both end, you know, the company has to be as candid about what it's like there as well as the person has to understand if this is the right fit for them. And, you know, look, I know a lot of us, it's like, we just need a job. And so sometimes you can't be choosy, but I also think the more you move up the ladder.
The more you should be more intentional about where you end up and if you show an aspect of who you are in your LinkedIn profile, in your elevator pitch, when you're having conversations with hiring managers and recruiters, that's going to instantly be, you know, a yes or a no, right? Is this person someone that's going to fit here?
Do we vibe or is this the complete wrong fit? And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. And I think, yes, you're going to narrow down your choices. But that's for the best because it's like dating, right? You're going to narrow down. We don't need to be dating all the people. Let's pick a couple of people we really like.
Let's spend some time with them until we pick the one. And you can't just pick the one based on a list of traits that are on their dating profile. You have to get to know them, you have to ask them questions. And so it's the same thing with your professional brand. How do you express, you know, what type of environment is going to be best for you?
Are you someone who needs like a remote work because you do well on your own? Are you someone who thrives being around a lot of like action and opportunity? Are you a hand raiser? Are you an observer? All of these things are so vital and valid. And I think the more that we Admit that we have to share these things.
The more likely we are to find the company that values that and then that's going to let us do our best work because if you are not being able to be yourself, you're never going to be able to do your best work.
RACHEL: Yeah, really nicely said. I think it is incredibly important to really evaluate the. The situation that you're considering stepping into not getting so lost in the, Oh, they made an offer. They want me. Um, that's great. But taking the time to ask, do I want them? Do I think I will thrive here? Do I have a good gut feeling about it?
DANIELLE: Yeah. And also getting sorry and also getting found, right? Like, set up your bio and your profile to get found by the right companies, not just to get found by everyone because you're so generic that you fit every description, right? So there has to be a focus on. Right. What message are you sending out there to get found?
And then how do you reiterate that same message, right? It should be cohesive. So your resume and your LinkedIn and your elevator pitch and all that in the interview should all be reiterating the same thing because we want people to say like, Oh, they're exactly what I expected.
RACHEL: so talk to us a little bit about that. Then talk about, um, so great. I know a little bit about myself. I know the version of myself I want to put out there. How do I think about crafting a LinkedIn profile that tells potential employers that? I
DANIELLE: have to think about what are you most proud of in your career, right? What are the things that you want to shine a light on and what are the things you want to do future focused? So, so many of us. You know, write these profiles like I, you know, I did this and I did this and I did this and it's just this like laundry list, but half the time the things that we've done in the past are no longer relevant or we don't want to do them or we've outgrown them.
And so it's a real, like, serious focus on what are the few things that I have accomplished in my career. How do I share them in a way that's going to highlight my role in those things? And then what is it that I'm looking for so that it also sets me up for what's next? So, of course, we have to think about, you know, in your title, you want to think about what are the keywords and search terms that I want to be found for.
But also like I always tell my clients give me that little fun hobby or just something at the end of that title that just lets me know you're a human being and you have outside interests and then potentially you can even weave that into your narrative. So, um, I can give you some examples if you want to kind of understand like what that could look like.
Okay. Um, I work a lot with people in product and tech. And one of the things that you assume is everybody's the same, right? Everybody's very technical, former engineers, a lot of software developers, right? They're very like detail oriented, very data, very analytic. And you think, okay, all these people, they're all product managers, like 1000 million of them.
They all sound the same. But of course, Yeah. That's nothing can be further from the truth, because each person has a different story. Where did they come from? Why do they love this? Why did they get into this? And so what do you weave in that showcases not just like that you're a great product manager, but how you think and why you are so good at a certain aspect of that.
So, for example, I had a client who. Um, was telling me he's a big survivor fan, the reality show, and I'm a huge, I've seen every season, but one, so also super fan, and he puts on this event every year with his family for, like, 20 years. He's been doing family survivor every summer. It's all these friends together to do this event.
And so, 1st of all, I think that's so fun and so interesting, but what we talked about, Why we both love this show is the psychology of people of teamwork of all right, you have to outweigh that last and outplay and so when he's working in product and he's building products, that's what he said. He's like, he thinks of it like survivor like that.
You've got the end goal in mind, which is to win. How do you get there? Who do you need to align yourself with right? Who you need to partner with in order to make that happen? What are the steps you need to take? And it was such an amazing. Marriage of those two passions. And of course, like his intro is so compelling and now somebody is hiring him.
It's like, Oh, I understand exactly how he thinks. And now you have a visual in your brain of who this person is, but you also know something about him, but it's relevant to what he does professionally.
RACHEL: love that. That is such a great connection. And you know, one of the things that I always tell people is, um, you know, we, we get to own our own story. We get to own our narrative. So your, your resume is not, and I think this is what you're saying. Your resume is not just a set of like facts and dates and activities, but you get to craft the story around You know what, what you pulled through that.
Like I will just share quickly for myself. I many, many years ago, I spent a few years working in an operations management capacity in a distribution center. So I worked on a warehouse floor. I managed a group of 50 people, mostly men who worked on assembly lines. HR. Um, and that was on paper that did not make sense at all that I was leaving a job there where I was wearing steel toed boots and a, and a hard hat.
And I wanted to step into this world, but the way that I positioned it to my next employer, where I did work in corporate HR was I said, listen, I was on that warehouse floor. I was responsible for everything from conveyor to technology to people. And what made me really good at the job was the people part of it.
I was not an expert. were in the conveyors, in the vehicles, in the inventory management system. I was excellent at hiring the right people, at training them, at learning to trust them. And so I was able to craft that story to help become my platform into HR. Whereas a lot of my former colleagues who had that same job stayed in the operations world.
And so I really do think there's something to how you, like what threads of the narrative you pull out and what you choose to highlight.
DANIELLE: Yes, and I think you hit the nail on the head with, like, you own your story, and I think so many of us forget that we're in control, and that goes back to, like, personality versus personal, like, we're in control of what we share, and I always tell people, of course, it has to be truthful, like, we're not pretending that we had experience that we don't have, but there's a way to position different experiences to serve your future goal, you know, even for people who, Had, you know, career breaks like if you took a break for your, you know, we're a stay at home mom and you were managing your whole household, that is a skill if you want to go into the workforce and portray that if you were on the PTA or you did something with your kid's school, if you took care of someone, all of these things, you volunteer anything, it doesn't matter that you weren't compensated with money, you learned a skill and you were compensated with experience and how you tell that story is, of course, what's going to hopefully get you to the next step.
RACHEL: Totally. I love that. Thank you. So let's talk a little bit. We'll hang out on LinkedIn a little longer because it seems to be the place. Um, so like I said, and, and we're recording this at the beginning of a new year. And I think a lot of people tend to take this moment to reconsider their current role.
Maybe it's time to look for something new. Um, so for anybody listening who is thinking about getting ready for a job search, what strategies would you recommend that they make to their profiles to really stand out to recruiters? I know we've touched on a little bit of it, but what else would you add to that?
DANIELLE: Yeah, I mean, I think again, like, so a few things you need to remember is that LinkedIn rewards content and it rewards engagement. So, before you even start doing anything, go take a look at your profile, make sure that title up top, so you get 220 characters there. What are you putting in there? What is it telling someone?
If you're currently working, you need to have your current title. And then what are other words and search terms? And what are things about you that you want other employers to know about you? And. That could be your industry. It could be, um, you know, a mantra or a thought process you have. It could be the types of work that you do.
Um, so get that optimized the about section 2600 characters, which everyone's like, who's going to read that? It doesn't matter. Most people are not going to read it. But again, the content could get searched by bots and found. So again, that's your only place to tell your narrative story. Right. You don't need to reiterate your resume because it's already there.
So how do you tell your story in a compelling way? Um, and I would say then start, like, working on your connections as well. Like, who, if you are getting ready for the job search, start thinking about who could connect you to the right roles, you know, blanketing, just applying to jobs, of course, is Just not going to be meaningful and LinkedIn is so valuable when you realize you have a second connection who now works at the company you're interested in.
And so how do you start warming people up, but you want to have a profile that you are proud to send people to. And so having. You know, and having a photo that looks like you at the top that is not in your car or not, you know, wearing a puffy coat, have a professional headshot like you think these things are obvious.
But believe me, I have seen things from people who have been working for years. And I just think we don't remember that this is your digital first impression. Everything on this page needs to be setting you up to seem like somebody that this company wants to get to know.
RACHEL: Great. Okay. So in terms of profile, you want to make sure that you look professional. You look like you've taken yourself seriously. We want to make
DANIELLE: You look like you currently are as well. So like for men, like, Is your facial hair on point? For women, if you're coloring your hair, you're not coloring your hair. Like, it needs to be recent.
RACHEL: That seems totally fair. Um, all right. And we've talked a little bit about your, your title or your headline. We've talked about your summary highlighting the pieces of your story that you want to tell. We talked a little bit about just knowing that there are bots. So is that, was that an indication to use certain keywords?
Is there, is there? Yes,
DANIELLE: yes, I mean, and again, we don't need to go crazy here, but what are the roles you're applying for and what's in the job description and we don't need to match it because most job descriptions are jargon filled nonsense that don't say anything meaningful. But there needs to probably be certain keywords and terms, right?
So what is your title currently? And are you looking for a similar title? Or, and if not, can you put something in? You put the industry. If you're in finance, put finance, put banking, put fintech, put HR, right? And spell these things out. Um, that's going to help you get found by the bots. And I always say it's a delegate dance because we have to get found, but then we have to get invited for the interview.
So you need to be interesting enough to get invited, but you have to have some of the right keywords and even be found in the first place.
RACHEL: absolutely. Thank you. Okay. So that's really helpful. I guess I would describe that as kind of the inbound. So that's how you get it. That's how you get discovered. That's how you get invited. You also said, um, LinkedIn rewards, content and engagement.
DANIELLE: Yes.
RACHEL: And that in my mind is kind of the outbound, right? That's sort of the, what you do, what you put out there.
Um, talk to us a little bit about different approaches that people might take to, to both of those things.
DANIELLE: Yeah. And I think, you know, it's so funny cause I worked with someone and like we updated his profile and like it had been months and he wrote back and said, Hey, I'm not getting any leads, any inbounds. I went over and I looked at his LinkedIn and I was like, Oh, you have not posted on this platform in three months.
Of course, you're not going to get anything because they're not showing you to anyone. So, you don't have to post if that is not something you're comfortable with or you're not sure what to share. But LinkedIn will reward thoughtful commenting. So, what do I mean by thoughtful? Not just congratulations, Rachel, on a job, right?
Something that is adding to the conversation. So, if somebody in your feed has posted an article that you think is interesting, can you comment on that with one or two sentences? Can you build on it? The simplest thing, this is the hack of the hacks, if they have written something in their caption that you can literally pull out and like re quote it back to them and say so and so I love this part here that you just said and then add one little piece.
But if you can do that a couple times a week, five, ten minutes, like doesn't need to be crazy. Just really start Engaging with the platform and that will help you also just not just get found, but like show up in a way that somebody is going to maybe pay more attention to you. And if there's a job there, or if they recognize you, it just is going to put you more in the conversation as opposed to on the sidelines.
RACHEL: Okay. I love that. So I would love to get your hot take on kind of sharing without oversharing how to be kind of authentic, but also feel professional. I know. And listen, everybody has their own vibe on LinkedIn. I know for me personally, my biggest challenge is when people post photos of themselves crying and saying, I was crying and I'm, and I don't mean to be disrespectful cause honestly, I That's your thing.
Let that be your thing. That would not be comfortable for me. But if I want to show up in a way that's showing my vulnerability, but without feeling like I'm performing or oversharing, how do you, how do you counsel people on that?
DANIELLE: Yeah. Um, I do think there's a, there's a fine line and I'm not always sure where it is. I think it is an individual thing, right? There was, it's funny you mentioned the crying because there was like the crying CEO a couple years ago that got slammed because it felt performative, right? It's one thing to cry and be genuine.
And people can connect to emotion and there's another for it to seem like you're doing it for attention or for the wrong reasons. And I mean, I think that comes from the type of person you are. You're either being genuine or you're not. And audiences are very smart and they're going to figure that out.
So I think it comes down to why are you doing this, right? If you're just doing it because you're like, I just want people to like. Feel sorry for me then that's not a good reason. If there's a lesson to be learned or you need support, people love that. Like I think if you're really struggling and you're like, Hey, real talk, I need to like tell people what's going on, that a lot of people will jump in because that feels genuine.
You know? I think it's like you have to use your best judgment. Um, if you're not someone who cries on platforms and don't do that, like I would never. Like you, I would never post a crying picture of myself, but like, I like to joke that I don't have tears. So, uh, you know, it doesn't mean I don't feel, but, um, my friends and I say, I don't have tear ducts.
So that wouldn't be something I would do, but I can be vulnerable when things go wrong and say, Hey, I'm not perfect. And I effed up and, you know, it's like a peek behind the curtain. Um, But it's also, if that's not your thing, then you don't have to do that. Like, I don't think everything about branding has to be vulnerable.
It's just like, who are you? And it could be that you're a more positive person and you're always kind of, and you're kind of woo. And there's a lot of wooey people out there and like, good for them. I say I'm woo adjacent, so I'm going to be next to you, but I'm never going to go full woo. Um, but I think you do you, and you have to be like, this is who I am, take it or leave it, and I think if you do that, you're going to find the right people for sure.
RACHEL: Yeah, that that totally lands for me. I will say one of the types of posts that I've started seeing in the past couple years, and I don't think you ever would have seen this a few years ago was people started putting themselves out there in a way where they've said, Listen, LinkedIn, I lost my job a year ago, and I'm having an incredibly hard time.
Um, and here's a little bit about me. And if anybody knows anybody and yeah, You know, that type of post where it's not performative, but it's so honest, like when you're, when you're ready to get past the whole, no, everything's great. I'm doing great. Everybody's calling me for interviews and just being willing to say, you know what?
I'm actually having a really hard time. And if anybody, well, um, you know, and, and yes, you need to strike that balance of not
DANIELLE: being desperate.
RACHEL: Yes. Yes.
DANIELLE: Yes.
RACHEL: Being vulnerable and letting your community know that you could use support. And when people who know you or have experienced your work in some way, see that post, they may share it for amplification.
They may offer you an endorsement. Um, I find that people, people like to help people, but if people don't know you need help, they don't think to offer it. And so having the courage to ask for it in ways that feel safe for you, I think can be really powerful.
DANIELLE: I totally agree. And I think, you know, there's this crazy, like mistaken notion from a lot of people who say, like, should I put the open to work, you know, a graphic on my photo? And a lot of people in like groups are like, no, because that shows you're desperate. I'm like, no, no, it just lets recruiters know you're open to work.
You're making their job easier for them. Why would you not do that? Right? And, There's no shame in looking for work, right? To your point, it's, Hey, I'm out of work and I'm available and look how talented I am. And wouldn't you want to come interview me? So I think it's a lot of just changing the narrative around what that is.
If you think it's going to come across desperate, then you're not in the right mindset. But if you're like, no, I'm open to work and I'm looking for a job, then you should be proud to say, Hey, I'm looking for work. And then to your point, ask your community to say, Hey, I'm looking for work because I do think to your point, everyone does want to help and we don't always know how.
So if somebody's like, Hey, I'm looking to connect with this company, or if anybody knows anyone at this company, that's easy for someone to do if you're just like, Hey, I'm looking for a job. If you know anyone, it's vague. So specificity is always your friend in the ask. Um, just like it is with your brand.
You want to be specific.
RACHEL: Really nicely said. All right. I have one more question for you and then I want to see if there's anything I haven't hit on. Um, can we just talk for a minute about different career stages and how, if at all, people should evolve their personal branding strategies if they are kind of young and new and, and just coming into the job market or maybe coming back after a hiatus versus, you know, they're more, more tenured, more executive level.
Um, any thoughts there?
DANIELLE: Yeah. I mean, just like we evolve as people are quote unquote brands evolve over time. And one of the things that I talked to a lot of students a lot and like people interning, and I always say like, it's, you're in, it's nice to be in on the ground floor because you get to kind of decide who you want to be right now, but that's probably not who you're going to be in five years, 10 years, 20 years.
And also like You don't have a lot of experience, you know, I have a almost 20 year old son and, you know, he doesn't really have a brand yet professionally because he's had like a few jobs, like he's been a referee, worked at camp, you know, what's his brand, but he's very sports oriented. He's very quiet.
So that he might want to convey that he's a little bit more of a quiet person and find a fit where he is not going to be, you know, handed a microphone or something like he's not going to be a commentator. So he has to put that out there. Yeah. But then as you evolve again, I think it's like a matter of shedding what no longer serves you.
And every few years we should kind of do like a brand audit for ourselves and like, look at your profile and look at how you're showing up. And if you're stuck or you're struggling, or even if you're. Ready to, like, go to the next level, what are you, what is the message that your profile or your bio is sending and how do you elevate that for what's next?
And I get a lot of people who are like, I just been promoted and now I need to, like, show up as a different type of person or I need to take more leadership or more ownership and I don't even talk about any of that in my bio. So I think at each stage, it's really important to think about. What you've accomplished and then where do you want to go and revise in order to hit those marks and metrics.
RACHEL: Nice. Really nicely said. Thank
DANIELLE: Thank you.
RACHEL: Yeah. So, Danielle, I want to be respectful of your time, but as we start to bring this to a close, is there anything that I haven't asked you or that just feels important to share for anybody who is listening and thinking, I really need to start upping my game on the LinkedIn?
DANIELLE: I think, you know, the, the, the thing I always tell people is baby steps, right? Don't, I'm not telling you to blow up your whole bio and like completely, you know, again, like step out of the spotlight and share all the things, you know, what is something you're really proud of? What is one thing you want to be known for?
Could you at the very least just put that hobby at the end of your title and see how that feels? You know, I've had clients do that who've only felt comfortable with that. And then they, they call me and they say, Oh my God, everybody wants to know about the fact that I'm a marathon runner. Or I get so many people reaching out about the hobby that I put up and.
It just opens the door to conversation. So for anyone who's just unsure, just baby steps, just what can you infuse, see how it feels. And you know, you might realize that the more you do it, the more comfortable you get like anything, right? We're not going to come out fully baked, you know, or a little bit of a raw cookie dough right now.
And, you know, you will get it to be this beautiful, delicious, big piping hot cookie. But for now, we're going to just start with the mix in the batter. So
RACHEL: No, but I do aspire to be a beautiful, hot, delicious cookie, so for that.
DANIELLE: of course, of course.
RACHEL: So, Danielle, If people are interested, they want to learn more about you, about how they might be able to work with you. Where can we send them?
DANIELLE: So obviously they can go to my LinkedIn, uh, which is just Danielle Hughes. I'm sure you'll put that in the show notes. And then my website is more than words, copy. com. And that's the best place to find me. I have a newsletter that goes out every two weeks, best way to stay in touch. And then I'm happy to share all the ways that I can help.
RACHEL: Amazing. Thank you so much, Daniel. It has been a pleasure.
DANIELLE: Thank you so much, Rachel.
RACHEL: Take care.
DANIELLE: Bye.