What does kindness really mean in a business context, and how can it drive retention, culture, and success? Linda Cohen, The Kindness Catalyst, joins the Modern Mentor podcast to explore the tangible impact of kindness in leadership, how it differs from simply being nice, and actionable strategies to create a more engaged and motivated workforce.
What does kindness really mean in a business context, and how can it drive retention, culture, and success? Linda Cohen, The Kindness Catalyst, joins the Modern Mentor podcast to explore the tangible impact of kindness in leadership, how it differs from simply being nice, and actionable strategies to create a more engaged and motivated workforce.
You can find Linda Cohen, The Kindness Catalyst and her work here:
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RACHEL: Then we're just going to go ahead and jump in. Okay. So Linda Cohen, the Kindness Catalyst, I am so delighted to have you. Welcome to the Modern Mentor Podcast.
LINDA: Happy to see you.
RACHEL: So happy to see you. And I am so happy to learn about the work that you're doing regarding kindness. It's in the workplace because I will tell you, I know I am hearing just a tremendous amount about this in my client work these days.
People are feeling this sentiment. I certainly do most of my work here in the US. we're recording this in early 2025. It's been, crazy times here and I think people are feeling it. They're feeling burned out. They're feeling overwhelmed and I think people are describing to me this experience at work of people just being edgier and crankier and less patient. And just the whole experience of engaging with colleagues is starting to get more challenging for people. And maybe I'd love to start Linda with a little bit about what are you hearing about in the workplace these days around kindness? And then we'll get into some of your expertise and advice.
LINDA: I think what you're saying is so right, Rachel, and I think the thing I'm hearing over and over again is having to give each other grace. And ourselves just because we are holding things outside of the workplace in addition to our workloads that may be, leveling on top of what we're feeling, in our workplaces.
And so making sure we are finding ways personally and professionally to lean into anything we need to continue to say, grounded and, maybe not have to have difficult conversations every single day.
RACHEL: Yeah, that's totally fair. So
LINDA: pause one second? Cause I want to make sure you aren't hearing my computer is making some worrying noises. And so I just want to make sure on your end, you are not hearing that. I can hear it. So I wasn't sure if that was picking up on the recording.
RACHEL: I am not hearing.
LINDA: You're not. Okay, good. Perfect.
Okay. Second question then. Thank you.
RACHEL: Awesome. No, thanks for checking. So Linda, you have been doing this work in the realm of kindness for quite some time
LINDA: Yeah.
RACHEL: Should we say at least a decade? Yeah. Okay. so things have changed a lot over the past 10 years. Tell me a little bit about what things were like in the workplace when you were first getting started and, what were some of the things you were focusing on
LINDA: gosh. You're asking me a question to go back a decade. it felt, I do think that while I felt like there was really this important value to, discuss kindness, I felt then that it was a little harder to bring that topic to leaders. I'm not sure it was as, as accepted then, and there were certainly less people doing it a decade ago.
And now I feel like there is this word kindness, and what does that mean in the workplace? place and what are the characteristics of kindness? What does that actually look like when I am focusing on that, whether that's patience or resilience or integrity or compassion or composure, or, a lot of the different, things we could break kindness down into.
And, why does that matter? And I do feel like I have more leaders now. I'm happy to say that my business is. thriving, at some point, if I put myself out of business, then maybe we'll be living in the world that I envision I would like to live in. but until then, I feel like I'm at least happy that there are leaders and managers and organizations that are happy to begin focusing on this.
And now that we're talking about why does kindness matter and it impacts my, productivity of my employees, their happiness, the bottom line of my organization, when they know all of that, then they, really want. To do more.
RACHEL: Yeah. Okay. So it sounds like today leaders are recognizing that there is an actual business case, an imperative for infusing more kindness
LINDA: Yeah, 100%. And I think the other great thing for me, just as someone who stepped into this work without having a road map to where this would lead to, there's also more research. Now there are more books about it. There are professors, university professors, doctors, all sorts of people talking about the benefits of kindness professionally and personally.
And so I feel like I have a lot more, research and science and data that I can pull on when people push back. About why does kindness matter? And I have to tell you, I'll tell you the answer 10 years ago. I remember people asking me, who's going to hire you to talk about that. And I have not had anybody asked me that probably in the last, seven, seven or so years.
RACHEL: Yeah. That resonates. Do you have any particular favorite pieces of research or data that you like to pull on when you're talking to maybe a bit of a cynical leader around why happiness is so important at
LINDA: would ask me that. I'll tell you the piece of research that I like to share, which is not really for the leader. It's really for the person themselves, which is about how kindness and happiness are connected. And the research is from a psychology professor at UC Riverside. And she, Sonja Lubomirsky, and she studies happiness.
And the final piece of the research is that not only does our DNA impact our happiness and our living circumstances, but 40 percent of our internal happiness comes from our intentional actions. that's a piece of research that I did not know when I stepped into this work. And I like sharing that because especially now when I think a lot of people feel overwhelmed.
I can't change everything. I feel like there are many things out of my control. I love that research to remind you there may be things out of your control, but what's not out of your control is how you act or react. So if you are in a situation that is a difficult situation. You have to talk to an employee or something is going on or a team member.
One of the kindest things you can do is have that difficult conversation, give that feedback, and know that person will probably benefit in the long run from that feedback. so, your intentional actions can be kind, but they can also be, impactful in the work setting.
RACHEL: Nice. So let's, follow that thread a little bit because I know difficult conversations, crucial conversations, we give them different labels. They tend to make people uncomfortable. Understandably, sometimes they are uncomfortable to have. And yet what I hear you saying is that sometimes having the conversation is the kindest thing we can do. so let's start there. Let's start with a leader or even an individual contributor who has something difficult that they've been sitting on. They know they need to give somebody a piece of feedback or they need to address a concerning behavior that they've seen.
are there any tips that you can offer around how we can have a difficult conversation in a way that is truthful and designed to help someone change behavior and also be a demonstration of
LINDA: I had a leader last week that I actually was talking to about this in senior living, and she had an employee that was failing in, an activity that they had expected him to do, and so she called, and her door is always open, she is such a kind leader, she leads with compassion, she sees her employees as whole people, she's one of my favorite leaders to work with, and she said she called, this employee in, and said what she thought was going to happen in this situation so that he would, she would take something off his plate and she could tell by his body language, he did not like that.
It felt like something was being taken away from him. And so she said, I don't, I can tell you're not happy with that. And what, what's going on? What, are you thinking about? And because they had built this relationship of safety and he clearly knew he wasn't going to be. Fired because of this situation.
He was able to share with her, this is what I want. and they were able to talk about it, together and came up with a solution that was gratifying for both of them. So I think when you build that trust with your employees as a leader, and you, are thoughtful about those difficult conversations, you can get to a point where you're gonna be able to find a solution together.
and so I think, trust and honesty and autonomy, letting your people have some of that as a leader, will allow you to have those conversations. And I think, if you practice when it's easy, it's going to be, it's going to be better when it gets to be a hard situation. And, there's already this situation where you've.
created between the two of you, I think you got to assume best intent, and if you go into this situation with best intent, this feedback is going to be helpful to my employee. They're going to grow because I share this with them. and if it isn't taken well, how can we, rectify that?
I think all those things are really important and it's not easy. I'm not going to say it's easy, for leaders, for the employee. but again, I think if you're coming from a heartfelt place, That's where you got to start.
RACHEL: Yeah. And I think there were a couple of things that you just said that I want to pull through. They really resonated for me. Kindness doesn't necessarily mean giving somebody everything they want and only what they want. What I heard you describe in that example was that the leader was truthful. They were transparent and honest about the situation.
And then what I also heard was they gave the other person space to have a reaction, to have feelings. And it sounds like in that case, they were able to reach a compromise. The reality, at least in my work, and I'm sure you've seen this as well, sometimes you're not able to compromise. Sometimes as a leader, you are just telling somebody something they aren't going to want to hear.
And kindness doesn't mean shying away from that. Kindness means being transparent about it and giving them space to just have feelings, have a reaction, and maybe not be defensive about it. Is that a fair
LINDA: Yeah. And if they do get defensive, you could listen as a kind leader. You could, repeat back to them what they are saying. So they hear her that they are heard and the outcome may still not be favorable for the employee. That is a possibility. However, If it's something where, there's going to be some time you have to work on a behavior, we're going to have to come back to this.
Hopefully if it isn't right now that employee realizes that leader helped me be a better employee, be a better listener, be a better manager, whatever it is, sometimes those conversations aren't going to, you're not going to know the results right now. You're going to have to wait six months, a year or something.
And of course, if there isn't a change in behavior, that person may not last in a culture that you are trying to create. That is a kinder culture. You may end up having to let them go and cut your losses because that person isn't the right fit. And if you have one person in an organization who is toxic and bringing in that negativity, that's going to spread, and you and your other employees are going to feel it and notice it.
It's not going to be a good fit in the longterm for you. I don't think manager, I think, I think manager work is really hard. That is probably one of the hardest places in an organization. And when you do it well, your employees will remember you. I, gave a talk this week, to a leadership team and I asked sometimes what, what's some way you got recognized and somebody stood up and she said she got a letter from a manager like 25 years ago.
It's still in her office. She's She still reads it. She still thinks about that manager. And now that she's managing other people, she also wants to emulate what she learned as a younger person. I think that's really beautiful.
RACHEL: I love that. So there's something in the power of just being reflective about some of your own experiences and what's worked for you. I also, I love what you said, Linda. You said practice when it's easy. So then when it gets hard, you'll feel more confident about that. And I love that. I want to call that out And ask people to sit with that because I think a lot of us, we think about difficult conversations, crucial conversations as being these life or death moments and we're, sweating and our palms are getting sweaty and now I'm quoting Eminem.
But, I think like finding moments where maybe the stakes are really low and you have a gentle piece of feedback that you want to give someone. maybe somebody said something in a meeting and you want to offer them just a little bit of advice on how they could have been more concise or more persuasive and it's.
It's low stakes, but giving yourself, being conscious about finding these moments where you can practice, being honest and kind at the same time. I think that's a really useful piece of advice we could all
LINDA: And the one thing I will also say is I've heard leaders say that they will practice outside of that first conversation. Maybe they'll practice the role play with somebody that they trust before they go into the real conversation, because then they've maybe thought through what, are some ways this could go?
And now I have some thoughts about how I can handle this. If it goes in this direction or that direction, I think you're going to get better at that. And I like the idea of, like you said, practicing when it's less high stakes. for you.
RACHEL: I love that. All right. So we've tackled a little bit around difficult, maybe one on one conversations, but I know you just. Said you talk to leadership teams. I know you work with organizations. You use the word earlier Toxic and that is certainly something that's been coming up a lot lately toxic cultures toxic leadership And I'd love to talk to you just a little bit about how you approach the topic of kindness at more of an organizational level So if leaders in an organization are looking around and recognizing, you know what we we are lacking in kindness and trust and patience and insert your own words and we want to try to shift our culture of kindness, but that feels a little soft and squishy and up in the clouds.
where do we start? What's, a first step that you might advise a
LINDA: yeah, I think the first step would be to come together and have a conversation around why kindness matters. And I do have, I have a slide in my slide deck, which is a big elephant. And I put that up if I'm being pushed back about why the leadership team is not going to think that kindness is important.
And then I show all of the articles from Forbes magazine, HBR, Sherm, all of the places that are showing why and how kindness matters. They just go by really quickly as I'm giving a thought process to why this word kindness. And I think when you say kindness does break down to trust, respect, autonomy.
I have over the years thought about the different ways that this idea can manifest. And I think the conversation has to start if you have a culture that is not where you want it to be. And you do think that the leadership is what's impacting that you have to start with the leadership and you have to have a buy in from them so that they are saying, okay, this is a culture we want to look at.
collectively. And then you can, talk to your middle manager, your front line staff, which is the fun thing that I get to do when I work with an organization that really buys into this. We want to change a culture. That's where we usually start is at the leadership level. And then we bring it throughout the organization.
And, there are shifts in retention and reputation and recognition, and being able to recruit great talent. If you have a culture that really is focused on that.
RACHEL: Absolutely. Let's imagine now you've, got a leadership team, they're bought in, they've come together and they agree, you know what, we do, we need to start to make some changes. What are some of the kind of behavioral shifts or the early actions that you might suggest that leaders experiment with in order to try to
LINDA: Yeah, I think it's, you use some words that I would use in terms of difficult conversations or communication. I would say being transparent, being honest, being, things that are going to be beneficial. I think coming to your team and saying this is what we are, this is the culture we want.
We aren't quite there yet. And maybe you started a team meeting and all staff meeting. Maybe you start with just your direct reports, your middle managers, but you begin to get the buy in from Any of the other people who are going to need to, share the changing culture. and then I think you just have to make it top of mind.
I have some really fun ways. I worked in senior living, is one of my big, audiences and we brought out a bingo, a kindness bingo, which had all the behaviors we were trying to bring out. And we incentivized it and gamified it as a fun way to bring it to, to more of the collective.
and that has worked really well being able to continue to have the conversations. regularly, I would say at team meetings, with, whether it's an icebreaker, it's recognition, it's a characteristic of kindness who want to focus on this month. I have bite sized kindness tips that I share with clients.
So a lot of different ways to really help begin the conversation. I don't think kindness is, It's it's not a surprise to people. I think once we start focusing on it and talking about it, how it can make a difference, how people can feel differently in a culture that is accessing that. So it's really just finding the people who are going to be your leaders and your catalysts and your ambassadors and helping, fuel them to be able to be out there sharing more of it.
And there's a lot of research about this now too in different ways. smiling at someone, saying hello, that is so simple and that's like a hospitality trick. And now there are like healthcare organizations and lots of other organizations that are using that 510 way to, to bring just a slightly kinder culture to the forefront.
RACHEL: Nice. saying hello, making eye contact. What are some other, maybe boxes that you'd see on a kindness
LINDA: yeah. saying hello to the person you struggle with was a fun one because I did have a manager tell me that her front line, her front desk person, was so excited to do the bingo card and said, I can't do this one because the person I struggle with is just. I just cannot smile at them.
in the end she decided to start smiling at them and about three days later she came back to the general manager and she said, Oh my goodness, something crazy happened. She's smiling back at me like I think maybe it was me. And the realization that we, again, we have control of our actions. and her, and our reactions.
We don't really control other people out there, but perhaps some of that prickly, behavior you're getting from someone else stems from something you're putting out there, so I'm smiling at people. I will tell you the thing that I keep hearing so often is recognize my work. especially throughout the last several years of the pandemic, when people, their jobs.
Morphed, they were taking on maybe way bigger expectations, job expectations than they had previously to COVID and just acknowledge what I'm doing, notice my work, be specific about what I've done that you appreciate. So a manager can play a huge role if recognition is a big piece of what they do.
and also, the other thing is check on me, check on me. I think it became a big kind of, Conversation. People are holding a lot right now, whether it is caregiving or external stresses, and I come to my job and I can't leave everything at the door because there are things going on for me outside of my workplace that are really impacting me.
So when a manager knows that and is, conscious of that, that can make such a big difference. And it can for fellow team members too. So I, actually teach that it's not just the leaders that make a culture, it's Employees to each other. It's employees to the customer and it's the customers back to the employees.
So having great ways to get feedback from your clients or your customers and making sure your employees hear that when they get complimented, I always say to start recognition at the beginning of a meeting, don't wait till the end. Cause I think that sets a tone as well. And I think that's one of the ways you can be honest and transparent about the behavior we want to, continue to have more on.
RACHEL: That's great. I love that. So if I'm tracking, I've got smile, I've got say hello, I've got, I heard you say ask for feedback. I think that's a really powerful one. check in on me, recognize my work. I think these are all and I will just note that none of these have to cost a dollar for any company that is saying, we don't have, we don't have the money to invest in a big giant recognition program.
It's not really necessary, right? I would add from, my experience and leaders that I work with, one of the One of the biggest acts of kindness that I see is when leaders start with a question instead of a directive, right? And which is a, which is a passive way of recognizing it's, if I'm the leader, it's my way of saying, I value your opinion and your input before I'm telling you what to do.
and I think sometimes we tend, the collective we tend to think of kindness as niceness and squishiness. But what I, a lot of what I hear you describing is just. Signals of respect, honoring somebody else's space, their work, their perspective. I think these can be really, significant ways to amplify the
LINDA: yeah. And I think what you just said is a great addition because I think you have younger generations getting into the workforce. You have people who've come through a pandemic, so their beginning of their maybe careers is very different than it was for the leaders who might be leading them, whose twenties or thirties were a totally different experience.
And maybe you have people from different walks of life or different cultures. Embracing that and asking for feedback and valuing that. Wow, you have a different perspective than I do. And, maybe honoring that. I heard so many incredible stories about companies that had to adapt during the pandemic and that makes an employee feel valued.
My, I'm part of something bigger than me. And if I give a suggestion and it's taken, there's a lot to be said about that for an employee. so I like that addition you had. Yeah.
RACHEL: Excellent. I hear a lot these days, Linda, from leaders who are saying things like, I get it. I get that retention matters and engagement matters. sure, sure. But the stakes are high. I need, I just feel like the pressure is on. Our clients are expecting more, our customers, our shareholders.
And I just, I need more for my team. And I know I'm supposed to be kind, but I'm so focused on results. And I'm worried that if I'm too kind, it's going to diminish how hard people are working or it's going to soften us. what would you say to a leader? Terribly. Would
LINDA: Yeah, I would, really encourage that leader to think about their, employees and their managers as their customers, because I think when you love on your managers and your employees, they will give your clients and your customers more than if you are a manager. all about productivity. I really believe that.
And I think the companies that are starting to do that, they're seeing that I'm hearing those stories. I'm reading about them. I'm meeting those leaders who are realizing that, loving my employees and I'm using that word love. I know, but if you are loving on your employees and you're treating them the way you want them to treat their employees and your customers, they will.
They will. So I, think, there's a new paradigm happening. And if you have a, leader who's still pushing back on that, I would, I'd probably send, I'd probably send them some of those articles that I was mentioning purposefully to have them read about. I'd also might share a copy of my book because in my book, Economy of Kindness, How Kindness Transforms Your Bottom Line.
By the time I wrote that book, I had been doing this work for about eight years with clients. And I, had to put it in there, all these great stories that I had heard. firsthand about, about leaders who lead with kindness and really believe that my team is what I need to nurture. And if I nurture my team, they'll nurture everything else.
RACHEL: Yeah. Do you have any examples that you can share, obviously, anonymously, maybe of a client or an organization that you worked with where kindness was low and they implemented some of these recommendations and there was some sort of impact to their business?
LINDA: Yeah. one of my clients, I'd say their retention has improved. I think the percentage was 12 percent less turnover in the time we've worked together. certainly the people who are not able to buy into the philosophy have moved on. And there's been a change in how the managers think about their, I just think kindness has become top of mind and we've kept it dripping, top of mind for a couple of years.
And I think that has made a difference for how people manage. each other, how they take care of themselves as well. And I talk about that in my work as well as, if you are, in fact, I said this week at a leadership meeting and I could see some eyes in the audience going, Oh, she's right. It was like, as a leader, if you have no boundaries around your own self.
care. If you work 24 seven and you go on vacation and you have your phone, your employees are going to think that's how they have to work too. So I think kindness to self as a leader is a way to show it and be a role model to other, to your employees. And also, if you're struggling, get help.
And get it publicly so that your team can know that they can too. I think that's, I've actually been paying attention. I know we're at the end of our podcast time together, but I have heard some younger employees talking about the role models for mental health that they are finding are the, are different role models than we might've had, in a middle age kind of population.
And so it's good because they're addressing that fact that a lot of people are struggling with mental health right now and they're getting help for it. And they're being public about it.
RACHEL: Nice. And what about for an employee? We'll just, maybe land here. For an employee who isn't necessarily in a leadership role, they aren't necessarily looking to role model things, but maybe they are struggling with, feeling unsuccessful or maybe a little bit of imposter syndrome. How do you encourage people to show kindness to themselves?
LINDA: Yeah, I laugh because the imposter syndrome is something I know you and I have spoken about. and I think, every, time I have a conversation, imposter syndrome, confidence, I think that, continues to evolve as you evolve professionally, but I don't think it ever goes away.
So I would encourage an employee, if there are topics that you, that you aren't You know, you don't feel like you're there yet. Get a book about them. Watch videos about them. Find there's so many amazing people out there in the workforce who are embodying probably what you'd want to focus on.
And I would say, encourage you to find that. And I would be honest with your manager. if you feel like you could have a conversation with your manager about that, do that. Because I think if your manager realizes I'd like to have professional growth. One of the things, Rachel, I see that I'm not Thrilled about is that I feel like sometimes the professional development happens at the leadership level and it doesn't trickle down through the whole organization.
And I think that's a lost opportunity because I do think in a lot of organizations you have high potential employees. who with some professional guidance and professional development and the opportunities to go to conferences or what have you, might really benefit from that. And, I'm thinking again with this idea that you have younger leaders who have, or younger employees who are starting their work lives with a very different set of circumstances than senior leaders had, it would be really beneficial and actually have one client I'm really excited about.
They are actually launching a program this year that is going to focus on kind of new grads to get them into their particular work environment, and they're doing an entire year leadership program for those brand new people. And I know that's gonna be a really successful program, and I get to be a part of that.
I'm gonna do a kindness set for them, around this idea of leading. And we're going to talk about imposter syndrome and confidence and some of the ways you can do that. I think that was a good question. Hope I answered it.
RACHEL: amazing. Excellent. Thank you so much. So Linda, as we start to bring this to a close, is there anything that I haven't asked you that you feel like you want to answer or that you want to just leave people with to reflect on or maybe
LINDA: Sure. I will leave you with my three, three universal lessons of kindness. I have been speaking about this now for many years since I've been in this kindness work now for a long time. The first is that the size of the kindness doesn't necessarily matter. Doesn't have to be something huge. And if you want to practice kindness, practice smiling at someone, letting someone in traffic.
I'm originally from back East. I live out West. I learned how to not honk and let people in traffic. but you can do that in the workplace too. Maybe acknowledging and noticing your employees, supporting someone. So find small ways that you can do that. The second lesson is the ripple effect. And I encourage people to consider if you hear good news, if you see stories that you are inspired by, share those, use your social media and any platform you have in the workplace or personally to share good news.
I think there's really a push now that people want to know that kindness is happening and I promise you it is happening. It's just not what's getting amplified. So that's one way you can, begin to ripple out. these great stories that are all around us. And then the final thing is just about giving kindness and receiving it.
And a lot of people find it very easy to be the givers of kindness, but most people struggle to receive kindness across the board, across the world. Whatever organization I talk to, people struggle with that. And my suggestion for that is to learn how to receive a compliment. When someone gives you a simple compliment, just say thank you.
Don't diminish it. Just receive it. And that's one, again, a small way you can practice that, so that you can receive something bigger if and when you have a medical emergency, health emergency, loss in your life, which will happen if you're having a human life. but then you'll be able to receive when people want to give to you at that.
So those are my lessons.
RACHEL: That's a beautiful place to close, Linda. Thank you so much for being here today. And we will have, your contact information in the show notes. If anybody wants to reach out and learn more about the amazing work that you do. Thanks, Linda. Take care.